Discussion in 'About the Members' started by Hermann, Sep 14, 2005.
Fault ....? Government .
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Does not compute, does not compute.......does.......not.......compute,.....lack of wisdom.....Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
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Why can't living for yourself be the meaning?
What happens to everything you do or thought about when you die? Poof... Unless you shared your knowledge(teaching others, leaving artistic creations etc), or had children
Maybe my adopted purpose has nothing to do with its duration.
even those that live for themselves involuntarily share knowledge with others. They move about the world changing it. Every little change is knowledge, knowledge of their activity.
Ok I'll admit that I went too far when I said hedonists have no meaning in life.... They just have very little meaning
That is only because you define meaning in terms of one's influence on society. I suggest that this can be a legitimate purpose, but it's arbitrary. Other people may define purpose differently. For instance Buddhist monks sometimes spend years in isolation from society, pursuing personal enlightenment.
A little obsessive to my mind. Buddha (born a prince) himself nearly starved to death trying to understand and conquer the emotion (experience) of suffering, and finally became recognized as a great philosopher, who taught that balance and moderation in all things are the purpose of everyone's journey, but there is such an overwhelming number of independent minds, each with their own dreams and ambitions and fantasies, that Buddhist value standards are still followed by many, but also still only a small percentage of the worlds population.
Thankfully. I don't care for the philosophy myself, and indeed it could be interpreted as concerned with helping society, but not everyone accepts that spreading knowledge to the world is the greatest purpose. It's just one of many.
Can you name one, I'm interested. Other than the arts and sciences, what do we do with our spare time.
Bonobos do, they actually practice love they neighbor......Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Self interest. Experiencing things. Inner peace. Gaining personal knowledge. Destroying something harmful. Revenge...
you are assuming a matriarchy is better than patriarchy when the truth is neither one is ideal. true equality would be a balance and neither. submissive vs aggressive is hardly a good choice. in truth, they are both oppressive.
be careful what examples one uses in nature as it reveals what one really endorses which in this case is essentially rape. this, of course, appeals to perverts. this is just the straight-up truth. I think there was a moderator also here who shares your sentiments too. most times, these types of ideas are endorsed by males because they assume they will not be oppressed or assaulted themselves and that they will always be the ones who choose or have most autonomy of decision. this type of fantasy is appealing because it omits them as a victim of ass-rape, for instance, or forced to deepthroat maybe even at gunpoint (remember no recourse in such a society as people can do whatever they want to you), which could be a real probability in a lawless and sexually amoral society, if you choose not to 'love they neighbor' willingly. instead, they are just focusing on who they can victimize easily so it's appealing.
but if you endorse a society that has no sexual rules of conduct or laws, then you are endorsing rape and even incest. that also includes the fact anyone can rape your mother, grandmother, wife, sister, brother, daughter, son as well as yourself. also, arranged marriages too and being a male gives you no more rights to choose. does that appeal to you?
also, in bonobo society, it is obvious that the juveniles are raped because they have no choice or have less ability to fight back. does this also appeal to you?
it's amazing what people reveal about themselves assuming others will buy it's innocent guise when it's actually the opposite, isn't it?
No, what people admire about bonobos is their egalitarianism, and use of physical affection to defuse social tensions.
No, it's not egalitarianism but rape culture, especially of juvenile bonobos. again, 'physical affection' is an embellished term for rape.
for instance, there is plenty of 'physical affection' going on in human societies, so what is to admire about bonobo society and their physical affection besides the fact they have no boundaries whatsoever. so if one admires that, they admire rape.
I suppose a human rape victim would also defuse social tensions by not reporting it or even feel they have done a social duty by being an instrument of another's need to release tension, right? I suppose they should just embrace every rapist and consider it 'physical affection', right?
I don't know how this would work out unless it devolved into total animalistic base culture. hell, your next door neighbor may want to screw your wife and according to bonobo culture, they should be able to knock on your door at 3 am and rape your wife. or if they prefer their own gender, they may rape you. does that sound good?
interesting that this admiration of bonobo culture would apply to a culture perhaps devoid of sexuality between consenting people but since that is not the case with humans, it is clear the only aspect left is the desire to have sex with anyone non-consensually, especially those weaker and younger perhaps with impunity and labeled 'physical affection', 'egalitarianism', etc. the clue is that is the only reason to think bonobo culture should be implemented into human culture where sex between consenting individuals already exist is aka, straight-up RAPE!
it's also a fallacy that sex defuses social tensions, it can actually increase it because non-consensual sex is no different than dumping/purging emotional tensions/refuse on another and then they will do that to another and so on and so forth especially if non-conscious or unaware of motivations or cause and effect. it can also blur emotions and emotional boundaries and confuse your emotions and frustrations vs another. it is predation.
again, people are full of shit. you admire bonobo culture, then you admire rape, incest and abuse and overpowering of juveniles.
I think bonobo culture is very cowardly and the very polar opposite of chimpanzee culture which is aggressive. neither one is ideal. it is something in between.
Obviously, we have the concept of consent in human culture, and therefore rape. There is no such thing among apes. Admiring aspects of bonobo society (especially in relation to chimps) doesn't mean accepting rape.
I really don't give a shit about your 'admiring aspects' obvious sweeping whitewashing. when someone remarks how they admire how bonobos fuck anything in sight with no social boundaries to handle social problems, they are admiring rape. plain and simple. especially insinuating as an example for humans to practice.
i'm about tired of making this really simple and obvious point that some intellectually dishonest refuse to concede.
Your criticism amounts to anthropomorphism. I don't think scientists make the same mistake.
Wow, that's quite an analysis and if that is based on any argument I made as to who has the more peaceful disposition, male or female, it shows your lack of study on the Bonobo society.
The whole point is that no one gets "raped" against their will. The females control all aggressive sexual behaviors of the males.
Young Bonobo males are playfully aggressive just like the common chimpanzee (and humans). They are male hominids and all that comes with it......Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
But when a young male wants to mate with a female who is not willing, all females will come to the aid of the female being bothered. Sexual favors are strictly controlled by the female collective.
It is the female who invites the male, often to share a nice heap of fruit and a little amore before and after. Even "strangers" (Bonobos from another troupe) are welcomed and offered comfort and sexual favors.
Inbreeding seems rare, which would suggest that no one is raped by a family member, in the classical sense. But teaching may begin early in life, from observation alone.
But you missed the underlying point altogether (which could be my lack of communication skills) that in the Bonobo strain, nature has found a way to convert aggressive violent behavior patterns, such as beating each other to death, into a sexual arousal which is enjoyed by both warring parties and peace (balance) is restored and grudges resolved.
You speak of rape and violation of rights. But that is from your personal social perspective, no?
Nature has no written moral standards and regardless of your personal perspective, if you consider that , as one researcher said, Bonobos go to sleep secure in the knowledge that they wont get killed during the night by a rival male. Can we say the same?
uh, most humans are passed the point of killing rival males over a female. you are exaggerating and equating bonobo society to humans which is farfetched.
you are evading the point. what exactly would you like to implement sexually about bonobo society into human society that doesn't already exist? i hear a resounding flat nothing because there is nothing. it's not as if humans don't already procreate or have recreational sex with those they choose/consensual. anything else?
instead of beating eachother to death, you think sexual arousal is a medium to resolve conflict for warring parties? so those who are raped and pillaged should have seen it as a duty to be welcoming and therefore maybe they wouldn't be pillaged or maybe not, just raped? oh, so it wouldn't be rape if it was consensual. the problem is with the victim. how the hell does anything of bonobo society apply to humans or even can, realistically?
you are also assuming that bonobo society is inherently matriarchal when it may just be appearances. the fact sex is used as an appeasement is more likely male dominated coercion that has become a part of bonobo society as a whole. just because males may let females rule the roost because she runs it the way he prefers or it deters male aggressiveness, doesn't mean the underlying power was not actually a male instrument.
using sex as the main means of deflating aggressive tendencies is pathetic. no wonder chimps have larger brain mass and use tools better than bonobos.
it's quite funny to me that this is what you are purporting for human civilization. i'm assuming you are male? that males just be sperm donors and both males and females do not know who the father is nor do they have any specific responsibility. yeah, that's a great example. NOT.
considering these things occur often anyways, you would rather increase such incidents by normalizing sexual promiscuity, irresponsibility and more maury povich shows.
Have you ever been through a war? I have.
They have no war!
Not make war? Do you even have an idea how many humans have been killed by other humans, for greed or sex.
Would you rather be forced to wear a burka, so as not to be responsible for being raped?
You do know that in Muslim countries, the female gets punished for being raped. It's all her fault.
and DO kill each other! It is true common chimps are more like humans than Bonobos.
As to intelligence. There was a long term experiment in Germany, to test the results of cooperative skills of groups of Bonobos and the Common Chimps. The Bonobos won every contest. The matriarch immediately began figuring out the problem (how to get to food which only could be obtained by cooperative efforts), while the Common Chimps were still squabbeling over who should do the initial inspection of the problem, i.e. male competition for dominance. The Bonobos won every test easily.
It seems, humans cannot and have not reduced rates of violence. And according to the quote, it would be desirable to have greater sexual liberty.
But then it say there is no reason to suspect human society will improve along those lines.
In fact this statement alone is apologetic of human behavior. Perhaps because we are not like Bonobos, but more like Common Chimpanzees.
But that entire article does not prove anything about the differences between humans and the great apes.
Right, NOT. But that is because we have a competitive rather than a cooperative nature (as in the Bonobo).
You just indicted human behavior.
And equating sex as necessarily wrong (for either party) is incorrect. Rape is wrong, it does not occur in Bonobo society.
And as the article explains, the sexual interactions in the Bonobo societies are mostly pleasantly ritualistic, without intent to breed.[/QUOTE]
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