Open Debate: Evolution.

(Q) said:
Evolution does not predict life began in the water, nor is it related. The beginning of life is the topic of abiogenesis. Furthermore, you might not argue successfully that abiogenesis predicts that life began in the water, so the Quran cannot make that claim either.
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To be honest, I am not well read about evolution; so, no idea

Or, is it such that people find meanings not necessarily originally portrayed by the authors, yet those new foundling meanings usurp their progenitors

Are they? Or, are they hand-me-downs from your parents? No, really.

No worries. I'm unable to comprehend peoples beliefs in gods. No one has yet to explain their beliefs other than they "know" the supernatural exists and that it's a personal thingy. They appear to merely rationalize these beliefs within the confines of their imaginations.
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Lets stick to evolution; religion is in a different forum.
 
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Fraggle Rocker said:
A lot of Christians say that you guys are the "evil empire." They even use those exact same words. Does that mean that they have the right to destroy you? They seem to be leaning in that direction.
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That is a prophecy, Mohamed said that time, will come when the whole world will sit around as sitting around a table and plot the destruction of Islam. And the Christians will kill over 1.8 billion Muslims, only about a 100 devout Muslims will survive. So I want this war to continue I want the Christians to attack Iran maybe use nukes and that. So then we cam meet our creator much faster. The final victory will be to the god fearing.
 
Muslim said:
That is a prophecy, Mohamed said that time, will come when the whole world will sit around as sitting around a table and plot the destruction of Islam. And the Christians will kill over 1.8 billion Muslims, only about a 100 devout Muslims will survive. So I want this war to continue I want the Christians to attack Iran maybe use nukes and that. So then we cam meet our creator much faster. The final victory will be to the god fearing.
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What crap!!
 
samcdkey said:
To be honest, I am not well read about evolution; so, no idea
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Well, at least we can agree the Quran did not explain anything about evolution or how life began, other than creationism directly from Allah.

Lets stick to evolution; religion is in a different forum.
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Ok. But, the topic of religion will rear its head from time to time when discussing evolution.
 
samcdkey said:
What crap!!
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How is it crap its the truth? what kind of a Muslim are you?

Here: http://www.inter-islam.org/faith/Majorsigns.html

There are many signs that will precede him; a general and very important sign is that he will come at a time when there is great confusion, intense disputes and violent death. When people are afflicted by disturbances and fear. Calamities will fall upon the people, so much so that a man shall not find shelter to shelter him from oppression. There will be many battles and fitnaas before his appearance. Every time a fitnaa has come to an end, another will start, spread and intensify. The people will be troubled to such extent that they will long for death. It is then that Imaam Mahdi will be sent.
Abu Saeed al-Khudri has reported that the Messenger of Allah said:
''He will be sent at a time of intense disputes and differences among people and earthquakes.'' (Ahmad)

Imam Mahdi will have to fight many battles, the most important and difficult being the battle against the Christians in which a large number of Muslims will be martyred.

' Yusayr bin Jabir said, "A red sandstorm erupted in the city of Kufah. Afterwards, a man came shouting and repeating the same words, 'O Abdullah bin Mas'ud! The hour has come.' He (Yusayr) then said that he sat up after he was leaning (on his side) and said, ''The hour will not arrive until no inheritance will be divided and no war possessions will bring about satisfaction. ''He pointed with his hands towards Ash-Sham saying, ''An enemy will gather its forces against the followers of Islam.''I said, ''Do you mean Ar-Rum? He said ''Yes.''Then, during this war, fierce fighting will occur. Muslim will ask for a volunteer expedition that will vie to die or return victorious. They will fight until the night separates them. Both sides will return to their camps not yet victorious and the expedition will perish.

Muslims will then (in the third day) ask for volunteer expedition that will vie to die or return victorious. They will fight until the night separates them. Both sides will return to their camp not yet victorious and the expedition will perish. In the fourth day, the rest of the Muslim forces will turn against them (the disbelieves) and Allah will defeat them (the disbelieves). They will suffer casualties never heard of before or he said, ''Never seen before, even birds flying near them will not pass without falling down dead.

Afterwards, sons of the same fathers (from the Muslim side), who were near a hundred, will count the survivors and will find out only one of them survived. Therefore, what war possession will bring satisfaction and what inheritance will be divided? While they are doing this they will hear of an even bigger calamity; That is, a man will scream amongst them that the Dajjal has appeared among their families which they left behind. They will discard what they have in their hands and proceed. They will send ten horsemen as an expedition force.

The Messenger of Allah said, ''I know their names and their fathers name and the colours of their horses. They will be the best horsemen on the face of Earth, ''or (he said) ''(They) Will be amongst the best horsemen on the face of Earth.'' (Muslim)
The cause of this great battle will be the Christians. The Christians and Muslims as allies will conquer a third enemy. However, the Christians will act treacherously as they will claim the victory on the strength of their religion, thus the Muslims will be driven to arms and will fight them.

Dhu Makhbar said, ''I heard the Apostle of Allah () say, ''You will make a secure peace with the Byzantines, then you will fight an enemy behind you, and you will be victorious, take the boot, and be safe you will the return and alight in a meadow with mounds and one of the Christians will raise the cross and say, 'The cross has conquered'. One of the Muslims will become angry and smash it, and the Byzantines will act treacherously and prepare for battle.''

The great war between the Christians and Muslims will result in the Muslims conquering Constantinople (which is modern day Istanbul) without army by the sheer force of Takbeer (Allahu Akbar).
Abu Hurairah reports that the Prophet said, ''Have you heard of a town of which a part is in the sea?''
''Yes'' said they. He said: 'The last hour shall not occur till 70,000 of the children of Isaac shall attack it. When they come to it, they (Muslims) will not fight with arms, nor throw arrows. They will only say: There is no god but Allah, Allah is the greatest, and then on of its sides will fall down. They will recite for the second time : there is no god but Allah, Allah is the greatest, and then another of its side will fall down. After that they will say it for the third time: there is no god but Allah and Allah is the greatest, and then it will be opened for them and they will enter and acquire booty. While they will be dividing the booty, a proclaimer will come to them and proclaim: 'Verily Dajjal has come out. 'Then they will leave everything and return. ' (Muslim)

It should be noted that the conquests will take place a very short period. Abdullah-b-Busr has reported that the Messenger of Allah has said: 'Between the Great War and the conquest of the city (Constantinople) there will be six years, and the Dajjal shall appear in the seventh year,' (abided)


The Great Famine
There will be a famine for three years before his appearance. In the first year of the famine the heaven will withhold one third of its rain and the earth one third of its crops. In the second year of the famine heaven will withhold two thirds of its rain and the earth will withhold two thirds of its crops. In the third year there will not be a single drop of rain and not a single thing will grow and thus all the animals with hoofs and biting teeth will die and the Tasbeeh will suffice the believers hunger. (Asma-b-Yauzeed-Mishkat)

Conquering Constantinople with Takbir, the Muslims will begin to take the booty. While they are distributing the war posses- sions a proclaimer will proclaim that the Dajjal has appeared and causing fitna in your homes. On hearing this cry the Muslims will leave the booty and head towards Syria1. It will come to their knowledge that this was a false rumour. However after reaching Syria the Dajjal will truly emerge. He will come out from a road between Syria and Iraq2 and his emergence will become known in Isfahan3 at a place called Yahoodah. Riding a white ass4, the two ears of which will be forty hands apart, 70,000 Jew's of Isfahan will follow him with hoods on their heads. Also accompanied by Devils6 and Jewish magicians7 he will first claim Prophethood8 and then God hood. Travelling as fast as those clouds which are driven by the winds he will travel to east and west entering every country, carrying out murders, pillage, devastation and performing unusual feats wherever he goes9.

Dajjal. On seeing the Dajjal he will shout, "O people this is the Dajjal the Prophet mentioned and warned the believers of". Dajjal will order to kill him. He will be placed on his belly and severely beaten. He will be asked, "Do you still not believe in him?" "No! You are the lying Dajjal" he will reply. The true believer will then be sawn into two pieces, the Dajjal will walk in between the two pieces and address him, "Stand up." The true believer will become alive and stand up in one piece. Yet again he will be asked, "Do you now believe in me?" He will reply, "It has only added to my insight concerning you that you are really the Dajjal." The believer will then proclaim, "O people he will not be able to do anything to any man after me." The Dajjal angry at his refusal will grab hold of him and place a knife between his neck and throat to slaughter him but he will be unsuccessful as Allah will place copper in that area and the knife will find no way to penetrate. The Dajjal will grab hold of his hands and legs and throw him into the fire. However, the fire will turn into a pleasant garden for him. This person will be the greatest martyr in the eyes of Allah and achieve the highest position due to his first death, which was caused by severance of the body in two pieces.(Abu Saeed al-Khudri /Muslim)

Doctors and surgeons are not able to restore the eyesight of those born blind or cure the leper. Dajjal will be able to cure those born blind, restore their eyesight and cure the leper. (Abdullah-b-Mugaffal-Kanzul-Unimal)

Dajjal's Greed
He will have a mountain of bread with him but he will only give bread to those that believe and follow him. (Jabir-b-Abdullah-An-Nihaya)

Dajjal Lures the Women
The Dajjal will make a stop at a place called Markanat, near Taif. On hearing about his arrival the womenfolk will rush towards him, the men will be forced to tie their mothers, daughters, and sisters fearing they will believe in him and get caught up in fitna. (Ibne Umar-Musnad Ahmad)
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Losing hope of entering these holy places, Dajjal will turn towards Syria. Imaam Mahdi will already have arranged a Muslim army and will be on the verge of leading the Muslims in morning prayer when Prophet Jesus will descend and Kill the Dajjal. (Usamah / Ibne Majah)

Brief History of Prophet Jesus
Due to the fact that the Jews had become deaf and blind to the words of God and deviated from the teachings of Moses and the right path, Allah honoured Jesus with Prophethood and sent him as a messenger to the children of Israel. Bearing all hardships Prophet Jesus spent all day and night conveying the message of Allah. Unfortunately, in spite of his tremendous effort the children of Israel did not respond and accept the message. Seeing that the poor and weak were becoming inclined towards him and fearing they would lose their leadership the Jews secretly tried to kill him. However Allah saved Prophet Jesus from their wicked scheme and gave him greater dignity by raising him alive to the heavens.

Allah says in the Quran, "They did not kill him and nor did they crucify him but the resemblance of him (Jesus ) was put over another man and those who differ there in, are in doubt. They have no certain knowledge. They are following nothing but conjecture for surely they did not kill him but Allah raised him up to him." (Surah Nisa)

Allah says in the Quran "When Allah says, Jesus; I will take thee to me and I will purify thee of the unbelievers" (Surah A'li-Imran)

These verses clearly prove that the Jews did not kill Prophet Jesus and that he was raised alive to the heavens. It is due to verses like those mentioned above and many authentic Ahadith we Muslims believe that Prophet Jesus is alive in heaven at this moment in time. We further believe due to the following verses and authentic Ahadith that Prophet Jesus will return before Qiyamah and his return is a major sign of Qiyamah.
Allah says in the Quran, "And he (son of Mary) shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the hour." (Surah Zukhruf)
Ibne Abbas has said that the meaning of this verse is that Prophet Jesus's descent before Qiyamah is a sign of Qiyamah. (Ibne Abbas/ Musnad)

Allah says, "There is not a single section of the people of the book that will certainly believe in Jesus before his death and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them." (Surah Nisa) This verse clearly indicates that before the demise of Prophet Jesus everyone from the people of the book will believe in him. The Jews will disappear as Jews after his demise but at the present the Jews are very much there. The conclusion is clear that the Prophet Jesus has not died; if so all the Jews would have become believers, which they have not. He will return before Qiyamah and it is then that all the people of the book will believe in him.

Jabir (R.A) reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "A party of my followers will not cease to fight for victory until the Day of Resurrection. He said, then Jesus, son of Mary, will come down. Their Imaam will say, "Come and lead our prayer" He will reply, "Some of you are rulers over others on account of divine honour upon these people." (Muslim)

Abu Huraira (R.A) reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "By the one whose hands my life is in, surely the son of Maryam() will descend amongst you as a just ruler. He will destroy the cross, kill the swine and abolish the tax." (Bukhari)

Hadrat Hudaifah-b-Osaid reported: The Holy Prophet suddenly came to us while we were talking. He asked, "What are you talking about?" They replied "We were talking about the last hour." Prophet (s) said, "It will never come until you see ten signs before it," He then mentioned the Smoke, the Dajjal, the Beast, the Rising of the Sun in its place of setting, the Descent of Jesus son of Mary and Yajuj and Ma'juj. (Muslim)
 
Muslim said:
That is a prophecy, Mohamed said that time, will come when the whole world will sit around as sitting around a table and plot the destruction of Islam. And the Christians will kill over 1.8 billion Muslims, only about a 100 devout Muslims will survive. So I want this war to continue I want the Christians to attack Iran maybe use nukes and that. So then we cam meet our creator much faster. The final victory will be to the god fearing.
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The crap is in presuming that the war in Iraq is a sign of judgement Day :eek:
 
(Q) said:
Well, at least we can agree the Quran did not explain anything about evolution or how life began, other than creationism directly from Allah.

Ok. But, the topic of religion will rear its head from time to time when discussing evolution.
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Who's we? Are there 2 of you? :)

Anyway, like I've been saying ad nauseum, I have not kept up with the whole evolution vs creatinism ( not to mention abiogenesis ), so I'm not equipped to discuss this.

As for religion, well you consider it BS which must be "exposed", so you and I are never going to even begin to have a conversation without it deteriorating into a slanging match. I've looked at your other postings and it seems to me that although you are intelligent and articulate, your choice of words is aimed at getting a "reaction". You will have to do better than that if you want to interact with me.
 
Muslim said:
Actually doesn't have anything to do with that. Muslims don't have a problem with evolution, Muslims believe that god put the souls of adam and eve into already living homo Sapiens. God even mentions evolution theory in the Qu'ran thats where Darwin got his idea from.
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So first evolution is ok, then you should be hung for it, then evolution is ok...

Make up your mind.
 
Muslim, you said: "Muslims don't have a problem with evolution."


Any religious person should have a lot of problems with evolution if he thoroughly understood it.

It is a blind, vicious, godless, directionless process.
You can't have it both ways.
 
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samcdkey said:
Who's we? Are there 2 of you?
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Does that mean you agree with Allah that he alone created everything in the universe?

Anyway, like I've been saying ad nauseum, I have not kept up with the whole evolution vs creatinism ( not to mention abiogenesis ), so I'm not equipped to discuss this.
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But, your personal belief must be whatever the Quran dictates, right?

As for religion, well you consider it BS which must be "exposed", so you and I are never going to even begin to have a conversation without it deteriorating into a slanging match. I've looked at your other postings and it seems to me that although you are intelligent and articulate, your choice of words is aimed at getting a "reaction". You will have to do better than that if you want to interact with me.
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Seems to me that you don't wish to have the contradictions, deceptions and fabrications that make up the Quran and Muhammad exposed?

The slanging match would only happen if you were the one initiating it.
 
(Q) said:
Does that mean you agree with Allah that he alone created everything in the universe?
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Yes



But, your personal belief must be whatever the Quran dictates, right?
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By using the word "dictates" you have exhibited an aggressive stance; this indicates to me that you wish me to go on the defensive.


Seems to me that you don't wish to have the contradictions, deceptions and fabrications that make up the Quran and Muhammad exposed?
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See previous comment

The slanging match would only happen if you were the one initiating it.
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This is rhetoric
 
samcdkey said:
Yes (Allah alone created everything in the universe)
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That answer, of course, opens up a gigantic can of worms. It also runs contrary to what science knows and continues to discover each day.

However, that's what you've been forced to believe, and no amount of reason and rationale will most likely have you thinking of alternatives based in reality, instead of fantasy.

By using the word "dictates" you have exhibited an aggressive stance; this indicates to me that you wish me to go on the defensive.
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Uh, the Quran does not offer a lifestyle or even suggest it, the Quran "dictates" a lifestyle, something you MUST do or face the alleged consequences of hellfire and damnation. Therefore, your issue of aggression is with the Quran, not me.

This is rhetoric
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What do you mean by that?
 
(Q) said:
That answer, of course, opens up a gigantic can of worms. It also runs contrary to what science knows and continues to discover each day.
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I do not find these contradictions. Kindly give me examples.

However, that's what you've been forced to believe, and no amount of reason and rationale will most likely have you thinking of alternatives based in reality, instead of fantasy.
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forced, reason, rationale, alternatives, reality, fantasy. Too much icing.

Is this an opinion?

Uh, the Quran does not offer a lifestyle or even suggest it, the Quran "dictates" a lifestyle, something you MUST do or face the alleged consequences of hellfire and damnation. Therefore, your issue of aggression is with the Quran, not me.
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The Quran is open to interpretation; you are free to choose the interpretation that best justifies your (non)beliefs

What do you mean by that?
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It is self explanatory. You are an intelligent person and incredibly skilled in rhetoric.
 
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