On language: on controlling and being controlled

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Mephura, Jul 16, 2003.

  1. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    HEY, there has been some excellent discussion amongst the incessant flames.

    Hmm. Yes, young intelligent adults probably spend of lot of their time nowadays polishing the verbal guns as they are practicing to become adults in a world awash with propaganda and lies (everyone pimping their perspective, many lacking character). Strong command of language helps develop the ability to assert power or discern bullshit from reality.

    Practicing negativity however, does also develop one's tendency to be negative. For a while the trade-off might be worth it, but in the long run negativity breeds unhappiness. Obviously if you don't care about happiness you might not care about all this. Pardon.
     
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  3. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Wes, now I promised that if the little worm ever showed its ugly black head in this apple again I'd keep the 'scathing' wit to a fucking sentence, at least. And so-

    Fountainboy:
    "I'm a trifle deaf in this ear. Speak a little louder next time".

    Some Wonka magic for the ghetto child.
    ===========================================


    Now, where were we?

    Wesmoron: (sorry...couldn't resist, it was bloody funny)
    Right on. A psychological bridge? That's the concept I've detailed out also, perhaps better perhaps not, but all that's important here is that we agree at least this much.

    Intersting. But how about a cone? And the starting point is on the other side, not the pointy one. At the beginning, nothing is intense. The slab is wide, general and impersonal.
    Slab by slab the stacking goes on in the habit of only learning the lingo and labeling. Its much later that labels shift to ephemara- concepts get blurry because the intensity tends to blind.
    But its always narrow, no?

    If you cut down a cone horizontally down to the atomic level, it still maintains its coneshape, no? There's no point in which it ever stops being a cone.
    The method or slab is the same thing in all stages but now it becomes a matter of the practioner thinking its something else, something intensely 'different' because of the size. But its still a cone.

    Same here. I usually drive past an ex's house and throw a fucking brick through his window when my programs won't work.
    And nothing fancy here either....from school anyway. All the cool stuff I glean from nerdy teen boys with way too much time on their wet, sticky hands.

    Caca.
    Wait a sec.....perhaps. 12 pages into this deathbeast of a thread I still believe that the only means for an AI to gain a concept of an 'other' self is through a guiding type of mental dialogue. A mental voice. If you could only sit him down with a philosopher that will fuck his brain with a method inducing it to talk to itself in isolation, he'd be aware. He'd be another creature thinking in terms of 'soul'.

    Or not even talking to itself. Allow him an invisible segueway to fall into and parallel whatever he's doing, something trilling superimposed to everthing that he's doing. And then if you can tweak this detour, or whatever you'd like to call it, or 'focus it' down with its own language he'd come around to asking upon himself.
    Language does what nothing else in this world can do and that's allowing its speaker to go in and think something's there when most possibly nothing is there at all.

    You seem to be thinking something like this but with variety:
    Right....but then
    Fucking loopy, but I got it I think. Why is this lense a mixture of 'mood' and 'attitude'? Regardles of mood, attitude, environment, and setting the mind goes on doing what it does, no? And whether its a preschooler or an adult its still the same thing. The only thing distinguishing both is the idea of 'depth'.

    I'm saying this 'lense' that can hone in and sharpen the image, according to you, is language. You don't like that becuae it implies my use of the word 'sham'.

    I've thought about it. This 'shape' that you're talking about sounds even more 'shammy' than my idea of grinding it all down to language.

    Another bummer. I say there is will with or without focus. The internal voice is more like a moderator suggesting the right to choice in the will of anything- itself or something not itself.

    You're going to have to inject this into a programmed robot in order for it to think in terms of "ego". That's why this:

    ........is impossible.

    A curse on your fat ass for being a loopy fuckard.
    Kidding.

    Would I bore you with what I found on Autistc children and wild children?
    :: holding a baton::
     
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  5. spookz Banned Banned

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    wes

    I'm almost positive I could create a conscious programmatic entity.

    this seems to indicate at least a glimmer of an idea. care to share? pal?
     
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  7. spookz Banned Banned

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    dankass

    If you could only sit him down with a philosopher that will fuck his brain with a method inducing it to talk to itself in isolation, he'd be aware.

    here's what i think. if you, the dankass, raps some shit to this ai, not only will the fucker become self-aware, it will also mutate some limbs to hightail it's ass (also mutated - bubble butt) outta there
     
  8. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Stop being a fucking pube, spookz.


    The fucker would not only become self-aware but would be drooling all over my toes begging me to marry him.

    Know what you are? The kind of vindictive slumbitch that would sell his body to someone just to know they got a bad bargain.
     
  9. spookz Banned Banned

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    i am so disappointed in you
    whatever happened to your sense of humor? cant you take a joke from your
    spooky
    pooky
    poo?

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  10. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Re: wes

    I already have. *shrug*

    All of this. All that I know. All that I can do when I have access to great minds.

    With my comprehension of the structure, of the organizational operation and using a buttload of smarties, time and experimental bullshit I think I could simulate a consciousness. I don't think current computer architecture allows it. It would have to be some form of starting from what we know regarding nueral nets and computers and take it into something new.

    Blah. It's basically all of the crazy shit I've discussed here and in subjective geometry. I think with enough smarties discussing it you could devise enough experimental implementations to eventually progress to the creation of a POV.

    Of course it's possible that I'd fail miserably.
     
  11. spookz Banned Banned

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    experimental implementations

    trial and error?
     
  12. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    I should have said "experimentation". If you call experimentation "trial and error" then yes.
     
  13. spookz Banned Banned

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  14. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    how about this:

    encoding inputs from five senses onto a medium. couple with emotional reward system and a propensity for self-preservation. encode these as they interact with the others.

    the "medium" is a loop of prior input twisted like a tornado twists through layers of gasses in the atmosphere... here the atmosphere is 'experience' which is really just kind of a time loopback thing inside that 'time tornado'. it's fake because part of the 'time' is memory and part of it is 'current experience" and part of it is "expectation of consequence from current choices/ new input". By fake I mean "fake time". The future and past components are fake, regurgitations of what the mind percieves itself to be, or what it thinks it is going to become. The only reality is now.

    okay i had it for a second but it slipped away again. pardon.
     
  15. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    So all of this that you've beeing doing here has been p.r. for your 'time tornado' robot?

    You said it already, you'll fail miserably. There's only one way to self consciouness and you don't agree with it.

    Ego boost:
    -From an anonymous reader who's been keeping up with this thread. And no, not Meph.
     
  16. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    /So all of this that you've beeing doing here has been p.r. for your 'time tornado' robot?

    No not at all. I don't have one of those. Just was giving a passing thought. My claim was only that I feel that it's a problem I could probably solve given enough resources. I don't necessarily have any intent of pursuing it.

    /You said it already, you'll fail miserably.

    No, I said it's possible that I would fail miserably.

    /There's only one way to self consciouness and you don't agree with it.

    No silly, it's just that I don't see a difference between self-awareness and incurring an ego. In other words, ego is generally a necessary by-product of the "sense of self". I think it depends on how it's implemented. I think self-awareness is possibly sans ego under certain conditions. I'm not sure what those are at this point though. I think I could figure some of it out for sure.

    /-From an anonymous reader who's been keeping up with this thread. And no, not Meph.

    Your friend sounds like elitist swine.

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  17. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Wes:
    The Gendy is neither a liar nor a backstabber. That was not my own comment and no I did not have the commentator chained to the waterheater forcing the words out his mouth either. Anonymous 'til he lets me do otherwise.

    Anyway...seems we're not really getting anywhere here Wessy. Call it a game.
     
  18. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Question 1: Why did you come back and edit?
    Question 2: What the devil makes him sound like one?
     
  19. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Question 1: Why did you come back and edit?

    Because I hadn't noticed the comment was directed at Fountain. My original comment was with the impression that the whole post had been someone elses words...

    Question 2: What the devil makes him sound like one?

    Uhm...

    "Although to see one of my own gender spitting about "watersports" is rather annoying... again. Predictable. How they fall. Fools"

    If you don't see it, you don't see it. To me, sounds like someone only sees down their nose! Of course, it's mostly just snide comment on my part, but "predictable, how they fall - fools" is a reserved comment that in no way solves problems. It merely reeks of an unwarrented attitude of superiority. I mean, if it were warrented things like that would need not be said eh? If you actually WERE superior you might invest in solving problems rather than anonymous condemnations right? Eh.
     
  20. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Wes:
    And what's lost by saying or thinking it? Folks like you get their feelings hurt?
    If someone like that finally subscribed to the sappy bullshit your kind buys into he would not be supplementing his discipline but destroying it.
    Say it. Live it. Think it.

    Its in the script. You would think of it as conceit. Its simple. I can also picture half of Eurpoe calling Napoleon and elitist pig when the sun is out but trembling in bed like little philosophers in the nightime.

    Blood drives and feeding the hungry are your department, Wesboy.
     
  21. thefountainhed Fully Realized Valued Senior Member

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    Too Funny

    So for the third time in a war of attrition, Gendanken decides to move on and declare herself the winner. Well, I am glad for you; for I would not have been pleased with what I would have had to do with my next post.

    One more of this kind, and I swear you WILL actually piss me off.

    Firstly, I will assume this 'anonymous' individual intended to say "reducing". Secondly anonyminity is cowardice. **chucklimg**Separation from your 'gender' to condescend your gender? This 'guy' is a moron. The only people who I can see writing that, besides yourself would be Meph, The Marquis and Redoubtable. Lets hope I am wrong. The "spitting" bit does throw me off a bit. Either way, only an insecure fool would write such nonsense in a PM.

    And once again, for the delusional fool: Napoleon, Ceasar, etc these men you talk of so much, about how you admire their egos, etc. Lets ignore that Napoleon was an insecure dwarf whose wife was fucking every able dick in Paris; or that Ceasar was plagued by feelings of inferiority, especially whenever he compared his "accomplishments" to Alexander, etc. Lets ignore therefore that their high egos where magnified specifically because they were inferior. With all that ignored, they actually DID SOMETHING.

    They ruled, the conquered, etc... By what credence do you deem yourself superior to anyone? You whose knowledge of Math does not extend beyond simple Calculus and yet 'laughs' at one trying to prove Fermat's theorem; belittling one of the geatest philosphical works in history when you couldn't even understand a tenth of the work; Condesending, copying and praising Rand, all at the same time, etc. If 'tis not intelligence, looks-- you have not posted a freaking pic, .... anything... that propels your ego, then what is the root cause? That you can pretend it or that you can simply assert it? Well sorry milady, bullshit dressed in gold is still bullshit.
     
  22. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    /And what's lost by saying or thinking it? Folks like you get their feelings hurt?

    LOL. What kind of childish drivel is that? LOL. Oh man. If you cannot see the problem with it, you certainly have no right to think it. I would suggest you consider it in terms of mental health, but I don't know if you understand mental health well enough to see why it's a problem. Ah, your loss.

    /If someone like that finally subscribed to the sappy bullshit your kind buys into he would not be supplementing his discipline but destroying it.

    What exactly is my kind? One with compassion? One with no superiority complex? One who is smarter and more mature than you? No I wouldn't think that's what you meant. Are you taking to viewing me as an inferior? If so, do you think that has anything to do with your perception of progress regarding any type of debate? Are you sure you want to play this game with me? I'd rather not because I'd rather think of you as a friend. I don't suggest that you follow this line of thinking as it can do nothing but further alienate people who would otherwise strive to see your perspective.

    /Say it. Live it. Think it.

    You might reconsider this short-sighted assertion.

    /Its in the script.

    Pardon, but I don't have a copy. Please make a copy and pass it around. I'd really rather ad-lib but if you need a script... *shrug*. I wouldn't expect that I'll keep to it but maybe you're a truly talented manipulator. Maybe your nipples get hard because you have the power to 'force' people to follow your script?

    /You would think of it as conceit.

    It apparently IS conceit so that's how I think of it. Nothing wrong with a bit of it but many let it out of control due to the false sense of power it provides them.

    /Its simple.

    I can see that you think it is. I wonder if you can see why I disagree.

    /I can also picture half of Eurpoe calling Napoleon and elitist pig when the sun is out but trembling in bed like little philosophers in the nightime.

    So you liken yourself to Napoleon and me to the "little cowering philosophers in the night"?

    /Blood drives and feeding the hungry are your department, Wesboy.

    How do you figure? How are they related to this issue? Are you so fucking short-sighted that you don't see that if I am smarter, it makes you smarter if we are engaged in earnest debate? Jeez, it's simple.

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  23. spookz Banned Banned

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    dankass

    And what's lost by saying or thinking it?

    mutt. the fuck should come out into the open.
    dankass, this is just another of your petty intrigues that you run in a pm box. yes bitch, i know what goes down. gossipy ass mofo! i spit on you and your cowardly "friend"
     

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