James R "Kaffir" is not an insult.

[Gustav]

as an atheist, i would very much be honored if i were referred to as a kafir
please oblige
some venom too

that fucking kafir, gustav!

/happy eek

 

[Gustav]

oh my!
a project

Notable Kafirs in Sci

ja
tt in atm

first place goes to our fearless leader, the mighty jamesr

 

[Gustav]

1 f or 2?

 

[Gustav]

i got it

1 f=unbeliever
2 f's= african

 

[Bells]

Also an interesting question.

I'd add that I personally am less concerned with the presence of insults as such, than with the attempts to avoid responsibility for one's insults. It's not so much that Chi is a supremacist who looks down on kaffirs, as much as that he expects the rest of us to pretend that expressions of such are something other than what they obviously are, and so implicate ourselves in his supremacism. It's the weasel aspect of his behavior that rankles.

Which is interesting.

I am, by definition, a "Kaffir" in Chi's world because I am an atheist. And not once has he ever looked down on me or been insulting. Quite the contrary, he has always been obscenely polite and courteous, even when I disagreed with him about something. Not once did he ever 'look down' on me.

An even thornier question, that.

But, I'm curious: in your view, exactly "who" and "what" am I? What are the relevant categories or relations, there? I can only discern so much, from my outsider station, and so mostly have to approach such questions in very coarse terms.

Well you got away with calling him a scrotum. Why do you think that is?

Well, he's pretty much constitutionally incapable of hiding such. It's written all over everything he says, whether he means it to be or not.

The problem is that he doesn't take responsibility for the consequences of that. He expects to be able to retain his uncritical supremacism, and not have to deal with people responding to him accordingly. He demands that everyone play stupid, to avoid getting in the way of his own gratification. It's asinine.

And yet, we support and ignore similar supremacism, be it political, from many others on this forum.

That just goes to show that you can't determine whether some bit of speech is insulting (or was meant as an insult) simply by examining the dictionary definitions of the words employed. You've agreed that Chi is an Islamic supremacist - that pretty much directly implies that any use of any word meaning "non-Muslim" is an insult, coming from him. And to the extent that he is invoking such disbelief as pertinent to standing in the conversation, it's also an attack on open, respectful discussion as such.

I'd always assumed he had started out as a Jew.

And possibly converted or something or other.

But you bring up an interesting point. Should we only sanction when supremacists use the word and ignore it when others use it?

I'll let Gustav speak for his own intentions, but suffice it to say that my reading of that exchange is at significant variance with yours.

Again, if the word or its use is so bad, why not ban it entirely or restrict its usage on this forum?

Most importantly, why do you think Geoff responded in jest when referred to as a kaffir by Gustav but was insulted when Chi used it?

Whatever anguish Geoff did or did not suffer is beside the point. I'm sure he can handle whatever Chi cares to throw at him.

Well obviously he cannot.

He is quite sensitive you know. Very much so.

If the amount of reports are anything to go by.

The important thing is not Geoff's feelings, but the fact of respectful discussion being subverted, and the associated precedent. If you let supremacists shit all over people, then soon enough you'll be left with a supreme pile of shit.

I believe you have a point there Scrotum.

 

[Gustav]

chi is spamming god shit, is he not?
please hang

chi insulting atheists?
a box of sci's finest chocolates please

we owe those retards that much
an even playing field

 

[Gustav]

Well you got away with calling him a scrotum. Why do you think that is?

easy
no one reported it?
for better or for worse, biases withstanding, james feels duty bound to act on some/all reports

 

[Gustav]

hmm

is it biases withstanding or biases notwithstanding?

i favor the latter
thoughts?
anyone?

/snicker

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

* * * * NOTE FROM THE LINGUISTICS MODERATOR * * * *

This dispute centers on an issue of LINGUISTICS so I am going to ASSUME AUTHORITY.

This is an English-language website, so the rules and conventions of the English language guide all rules and decisions. If anyone wants to start a thread in Arabic or any other language, they are welcome to do so. But if you're going to write in English, you must obey the rules of English.

In English, the K-word is not only an insult, but it is one of the most vile insults we have. It is comparable to the N-word, which is so vile that most of us don't even spell it out except in a scholarly discussion on the Linguistics subforum, where we're talking about its origin, spelling pronunciation, etc.

The reason for this is that the K-word entered our language through South African English, one of the recognized standard dialects of English. It has come to be an offensive term for people of African ancestry or ethnicity, which makes it almost identical to the N-word in American English. However, unlike in America, a nation of rebels and iconoclasts, where the N-word has been appropriated by Afro-Americans and rehabilitated, this has not happened with the K-word in South Africa. As far as I can tell, it is NEVER spoken in polite company, it is NEVER spoken on radio or TV, and it is NEVER printed. Its use appears to actually be illegal there, although I don't know what the punishment is.

So, in addition to deeply offending any South Africans who wander into our website looking for scholarship, this word could actually get us BANNED FROM THE COUNTRY by corporate, government and educational filters, if it starts showing up here with any regularity. This defeats SciForums's mission of being a place of science and scholarship for the whole world. We are not going to jeopardize this mission so that some precocious kid can get his rocks off by defying the instructions of the Moderators and Administrators, just to show off how cool and macho he is.

So consider this a warning to the entire membership: If I see the K-word again on SciForums, or if someone alerts me to its presence, I WILL DELETE THE POST. If it happens a second time, I WILL BAN THE MEMBER WHO POSTED IT.

I don't know how James feels about this. But I have always operated on the principle that it is much easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. So he and I can argue about it when and if it happens. I'm sure he does not want us blacked out in South Africa either. We've gone to a lot of trouble to avoid getting tangled in the filters in certain European nations, so were not about to let it happen somewhere else.

 

[GeoffP]

The blind sculptor

Tamil Nadu is a state in India, last time I checked. This is not a production by Sri Lankan Tamils or some Canadian diaspora or anything like that. It'd be wrong to call it a "Bollywood film," but "Indian film" seems perfectly accurate (if less specific than Tamil) to me...

Damn. I admit, I had no idea.

Because that is what the term is known to be so offensive for. It is what white South Africans called black South Africans.. I knew and spent the first part of my life being called that by white South Africans who lived in my country of birth. So you'll excuse me if I scoff at you, being offended at being called that.

Well, you've misplaced the term then. You have no right to scoff at another person's offense at a label, merely because it shares spelling (or even origin) with another word with a different, even more antagonistic intent. You can own the term as much as you like...when it's meant in the manner you describe.

The term was originally used to describe non-Muslims.. When describing religious connotations or lack thereof, it means heathen. Tell me, which is the most offensive to you? Would you be just as offended if a Protestant called you a heathen?

Yes, I think so, unless he meant it as a sarcastic joke and knew me quite well. But Chi doesn't know me well, and doesn't mean it like that. You see the difference? Do you see the irony of your defense?

You complain about the religion itself

O-kay: way off on a tangent here, and a wrong one. I complain about its application in law, but then again I'm not exactly on board with Pat Robertson either, am I?

and then complain when you are referred to as a 'non-Muslim'.

And this part is totally unrelated to the first. I complain about being referred to in using a derogatory term (think "hand-wringing") in a derogatory way. But this part of the sentence doesn't really jive with the first: it's not as though my choices are complaining about Islamist politics that I should be attacked. I mean, I think you know this term is offensive implicitly from the contrast you're trying to make here: I complain, so I must be complained about in turn. But next you make this point:

At best, your complaint should have been about the incorrect use of the term:

Well, make up your mind: is the term offensive, in which case I deserve to be offended in turn, or inoffensive, in which case I have misconstrued it, as in your second argument? It really doesn't matter what the correct group that can be called kafir is: it matters that the term itself is offensive.

Or is it just insulting if it's a Muslim who does it? Which leads to other questions, don't you think?

It certainly would...if it led there. I know you're attempting to direct this off into other channels, but it doesn't scan and so I have to stop you there.

I am interested though, how many report posts did you file when Gustav called you a "Kaffir"?

None, because I know he's not a devout Muslim trying to defame me. You see the difference?

You felt like he was calling your religious belief as being made up of "cleverly sculpted shit".

This is also a mischaracterization of my comment, as you full well know.

Is Chi a supremacist? Yes. He never once hid that fact.

Then, there it is. :shrug:

But how insulted do you think Geoff was at being called a "Kaffir" by Gustav for example? And I can assure you, he did mean it to be insulting.

Yes, I considered the possibility: I suppose you have inside knowledge. The other little trick in the can is that I don't take gustav particularly seriously, even though I respect his views and his comments. And I can assure you, at some point or other I'd decide that gustav had gone "far enough"; but you also have to understand that Gustav isn't an Islamic supremacist - whereas Chi, as you admit, is - and so the insult coming from him isn't terribly troubling. It's like an atheist calling me a heathen - a curiosity, certainly, but not much of a meaningful attack. You're attempting to try and play a racist card, but it's one that, as usual, doesn't wash.

As I said, I am sure that Geoff felt demeaned when he was rudely called a non-Muslim. And for that, he should get all of our sympathies and comfort. The trauma he suffered from it must have been great, I'm sure.

It's funny that you go on about demeaning, and meaning, whilst actually demeaning a little. :shrug:

 

[GeoffP]

Fraggle: good and alarming point. Maybe the thread should be closed and scrapped.

 

[James R]

Bells:

One could also argue that he was responding in kind or defending himself against slurs to his religion.

Which particular slurs are you referring to? Got a link?

If I recall correctly, EFC was actually banned recently for preaching his religion. Since his recent encounter with his god he has apparently decided to make it his mission on sciforums to preach Islam to the unbelievers. We're not that kind of site*, and that has been pointed out quite clearly to EFC, first with warnings, then with bans, as is the normal course of action with such things.

But no matter, he (Geoff) felt insulted.

So did other people. Geoff was only one person to report EFC's posts. Anyway, does it matter to you that it was Geoff? Is it ok in your book to insult Geoff? Is he not deserving of the same protections that all other members get against being insulted?

As I am sure that Chi felt insulted at being referred to as:

EmptyHeadOfChi
EmptyScrotumOfChi
EmptySkullOfChi

Probably. I must say I didn't notice those until you pointed them out.

Because obviously, being called a heathen or Kaffir from someone we assume is Muslim is much much worse than being called a scrotum and thus demands immediate sanctions by way of warnings and ban. I mean being called a scrotum isn't derogatory at all, is it?

Two wrongs don't make a right, Bells. You're making a basic error there that also often comes up when somebody is sanctioned. When X is sanctioned, all X's supporters come out saying "But look what Y said. It was much worse." That doesn't affect X's breach of the site rules. If Y were reported or his posts noticed by a passing moderator, Y would also be sanctioned.

And I am sure, that quad will have no issues at all at my calling him a scrotum from now on on the forum and nor will you, correct?

If you called quad a scrotum and he hit the "report" button, I would have no problem at all in warning you for it, followed by a ban if you continued the unwelcome behaviour.

And of course, because he has been banned, he cannot report the insults. Ah.. convenience.. tis grand is it not?

He can't, but you could.

Are you requesting a ban for quadraphonics? If so, let me know and I can make it happen. It's quite fair if that's what you want.

 

[Gustav]

so
we now have in our midst, a mod gone mad

i mean...whats next? bolded and CAPPED?

/snort

 

[GeoffP]

so
we now have in our midst, a mod gone mad

I will pray for Bells if you will.

 

[Gustav]

oh cmon
i was referring to frakking frag

 

[GeoffP]

oh cmon
i was referring to frakking frag

Meh. It could happen.

 

[Bells]

Bells:



Which particular slurs are you referring to? Got a link?

Oh I don't know James, last time someone called saw it as being "cleverly constructed shit", it all became twisted.

If I recall correctly, EFC was actually banned recently for preaching his religion.

Was he?

Since his recent encounter with his god he has apparently decided to make it his mission on sciforums to preach Islam to the unbelievers.

Must have been some ban kick if he was banned all the way to God.

We're not that kind of site*, and that has been pointed out quite clearly to EFC, first with warnings, then with bans, as is the normal course of action with such things.

No. We are not the kind of site that would promote a religion that is made up of "cleverly constructed shit".

So did other people. Geoff was only one person to report EFC's posts. Anyway, does it matter to you that it was Geoff? Is it ok in your book to insult Geoff? Is he not deserving of the same protections that all other members get against being insulted?

On the contrary.

I firmly believe that Geoff is a precious little rose petal that deserves all the protection that you can afford him.

Probably. I must say I didn't notice those until you pointed them out.

Hmmm..

Two wrongs don't make a right, Bells. You're making a basic error there that also often comes up when somebody is sanctioned. When X is sanctioned, all X's supporters come out saying "But look what Y said. It was much worse." That doesn't affect X's breach of the site rules. If Y were reported or his posts noticed by a passing moderator, Y would also be sanctioned.

Not at all. I just find it interesting that the other letters of the alphabet can call people whatever they want and it's never noticed.

If you called quad a scrotum and he hit the "report" button, I would have no problem at all in warning you for it, followed by a ban if you continued the unwelcome behaviour.

Well you have proof in this thread that he has no issues at all with being called Scrotum.

So rest assured James.

He can't, but you could.

Are you requesting a ban for quadraphonics? If so, let me know and I can make it happen. It's quite fair if that's what you want.

Not at all.

I am not a precious little petal who runs to mummy each time someone says something mean to me.

Well, you've misplaced the term then. You have no right to scoff at another person's offense at a label, merely because it shares spelling (or even origin) with another word with a different, even more antagonistic intent. You can own the term as much as you like...when it's meant in the manner you describe.

But I am a kafir. By every sense of the word. Are you offended on my behalf if I call myself a kafir?

Yes, I think so, unless he meant it as a sarcastic joke and knew me quite well. But Chi doesn't know me well, and doesn't mean it like that. You see the difference? Do you see the irony of your defense?

Of course cherie. You were offended.

There there.. it's alright. The big bad Muslim fellow is gone now. He cannot hurt you no more..

But this part of the sentence doesn't really jive with the first: it's not as though my choices are complaining about Islamist politics that I should be attacked. I mean, I think you know this term is offensive implicitly from the contrast you're trying to make here: I complain, so I must be complained about in turn.

No my sweet.

All that matters is that you were offended.

It's okay. Really.

I am not complaining about you at all.

Well, make up your mind: is the term offensive, in which case I deserve to be offended in turn, or inoffensive, in which case I have misconstrued it, as in your second argument? It really doesn't matter what the correct group that can be called kafir is: it matters that the term itself is offensive.

But to whom?

By its very original definition, you are a kafir. I am a kafir by the use of it in South Africa and by its religious connotation.

However it matters not. You felt offended.

And that's fine.

It certainly would...if it led there. I know you're attempting to direct this off into other channels, but it doesn't scan and so I have to stop you there.

But it very much does scan.

A Muslim refers to you as a Kafir and you take offence. A non-Muslim refers to you by the exact same term and you treat it as a joke.

So is it the word that offends you or its point of origination?

I think you need to make that clear, lest some unwary Muslim member sees you joking about it with Gustav and mistakenly calls you that and you report him for insulting you.

None, because I know he's not a devout Muslim trying to defame me. You see the difference?

So you would not be offended if a non-devout Muslim referred to you as such?

And defame you?

*Snort*

This is also a mischaracterization of my comment, as you full well know.

Oh I am sorry. Are you feeling offended?

Please excuse me. I beg for your forgiveness..

Then, there it is.

Hmm.. indeed..

Yes, I considered the possibility: I suppose you have inside knowledge.

Yes. I can read his mind.

The other little trick in the can is that I don't take gustav particularly seriously, even though I respect his views and his comments. And I can assure you, at some point or other I'd decide that gustav had gone "far enough"; but you also have to understand that Gustav isn't an Islamic supremacist - whereas Chi, as you admit, is - and so the insult coming from him isn't terribly troubling.

I always assumed Chi was a Jew of some sort or other.

Chi is very much a supremacist, but is he an Islamic supremacist?

But thank you for defining it for me. Kafir should only be deemed offensive if it is said by a "devout Muslim".

It's funny that you go on about demeaning, and meaning, whilst actually demeaning a little.

Not at all cherie.

We have to protect the most vulnerable of your community. And I can assure you, you are well protected by all of us.

 

[Gustav]

so ahh...contexts.........wikishit and this

1 - used primarily by classical Islamic doctrine to refer to those who "disbelieve" in one God - atheists and polytheists (but not Christian and Jews).

2 - In recent times it is more of a "discriminatory" term against "unbelievers", "disbelievers" or "non-believers" in the Islamic faith. Muslim scholars have discouraged its use due to the Quran's command to use kind words.

3 - In South Africa today, the term is used both as an insult, and by some, as a common word for a black person. In any case, the term is regarded by most as derogatory (in the same way as "nigger" in other countries). Use of the word has been actionable in South African courts since at least 1976 under the offense of crimen injuria: "the unlawful, intentional and serious violation of the dignity of another".

4 - The population of African-Sri Lankans -- now numbering about 1,000 -- is mainly descended from slaves brought to the island after about 1500 by Portuguese colonialists.They are known as "Kaffirs", but the term is not the savage racial insult here that it is in other parts of the world, notably South Africa. "We are proud of our name. In Sri Lanka, it is not a racist word like the word negro or nigger," said Marcus Jerome Ameliana, who believes her ancestors came to Sri Lanka, then known as Ceylon, as Portuguese slaves.
​

frag's megalomaniacal blanket ban of the term cannot work in these hallowed halls of higher learning

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTE FROM THE COMMUNITY TO THE NAZIS

DO NOT MAKE MOUNTAINS OUT OF MOLEHILLS
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

 

[Gustav]

now
some educational vids

Kaffir Community -NWZ298 ​

 

[quadraphonics]

I am, by definition, a "Kaffir" in Chi's world because I am an atheist. And not once has he ever looked down on me or been insulting. Quite the contrary, he has always been obscenely polite and courteous, even when I disagreed with him about something. Not once did he ever 'look down' on me.

Or, not that you noticed, anyway. Good for you, I suppose. So what? Are you even disputing any of the relevant facts?

Well you got away with calling him a scrotum.

Did I? Doesn't seem like the typical lag between offense and sanction has occurred. And I note some down-thread offer by one JamesR to pursue exactly such sanctions if you feel such are warranted.

Why do you think that is?

Didn't I just ask you that, and profess some difficulty in approaching such questions due to my non-privileged perspective?

You realize that I do get banned and otherwise sanctioned here, with some regularity, and often exactly on the grounds of insult?

And yet, we support and ignore similar supremacism, be it political, from many others on this forum.

So sanction that as well.

I'd always assumed he had started out as a Jew.

My guess was some kind of Chinese philosophy, given the username.

But you bring up an interesting point. Should we only sanction when supremacists use the word and ignore it when others use it?

I wouldn't propose so specific of a rule, but it's going to be the case that the overwhelming majority of insulting uses of such labels are going to come from corresponding supremacists. It's pretty difficult for anyone else to use such terms in an offensive way, by definition.

Again, if the word or its use is so bad, why not ban it entirely or restrict its usage on this forum?

Isn't exactly such a usage prohibition what is being pursued? Fraggle seems pretty unequivocable about it, in fact.

Most importantly, why do you think Geoff responded in jest when referred to as a kaffir by Gustav but was insulted when Chi used it?

Because the former instance was humor, and the latter was insult. Obviously.

Well obviously he cannot.

He is quite sensitive you know. Very much so.

If the amount of reports are anything to go by.

Your fixation on Geoff is getting pretty weird.

I believe you have a point there Scrotum.

But do you?

And, again, the insult there was that the scrotum was empty. Nothing particularly insulting about being called a scrotum, to me anyway.