Is the brain necessary for consciousness?

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river said:
↑ Natural selection is reinforced patterns , through experience .
In any environment .
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The full terminology of Darwinian Evolution;
"On the Origin of Species" (or, more completely, "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection", published on 24 November 1859, is a work of scientific literature by Charles Darwin that is considered to be the foundation of evolutionary biology.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Origin_of_Species#
Intellect and Mind Evolve
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Yep, by means of "natural selection"!
 
river said:
What Brain complexity increase ?
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I don't know for sure, but IMO, the beneficial mutation of fusing two ancestral chromosomes was causal to the growth of a larger brain with more folding allowing for much greater data processing capacity.

Hence the new terms like ORCH OR (Orchestrated Objective Reduction), and IIT (Integrated Information Theory)

There is one indisputable difference between humans and all other hominids. All Great Apes, except humans have 48 pr chromosomes, where all humans have 46 pr chromosomes. This was due to the fusion of 2 chromosomes in our common ancestor that produced chromosome 2 in humans which is twice as large as all other shared chromosomes. This combinatory growth instruction of Chromosome 2 must have been responsible for "what makes us human".

I believe that is proof of the increase in growth of brain size and complexity, which is the unique survival mechanism that has allowed humans to manipulate and also destroy the earth's biosphere, whereas all other apes still live in harmony within the constraints of the natural environment, where we hunt them down to collect their hands for making ashtrays.

Due to this drastic "mutation" (rather than a slow sensory refinement) we became too smart for our own good.

Interestingly, this process is described in the biblical allegory of "man eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge" and thereby becoming "Strangers in Paradise".
 
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Write4U said:
I don't know for sure, but IMO, the beneficial mutation of fusing two ancestral chromosomes was causal to the growth of a larger brain with more folding allowing for much greater data processing capacity.

Hence the new terms like ORCH OR (Orchestrated Objective Reduction), and IIT (Integrated Information Theory)

There is one indisputable difference between humans and all other hominids. All Great Apes, except humans have 48 pr chromosomes, where all humans have 46 pr chromosomes. This was due to the fusion of 2 chromosomes in our common ancestor that produced chromosome 2 in humans which is twice as large as all other shared chromosomes. This combinatory growth instruction of Chromosome 2 must have been responsible for "what makes us human".

I believe that is proof of the increase in growth of brain size and complexity, which is the unique survival mechanism that has allowed humans to manipulate and also destroy the earth's biosphere.

Due to this drastic "mutation" (rather than a slow sensory refinement) we became too smart for our own good.

Interestingly, this process is described in the biblical allegory of "man eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge" and thereby becoming "Strangers in Paradise".
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I find that there is more confusion about things and consciousness .
 
river said:
I find that there is more confusion about things and consciousness .
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Well yes, of course there is but consider that humans are the only apes with 46 chromosomes and that all other apes are relatively of the same intellect with 48 pr chromosomes.

All other differences are either cosmetic or adaptions to the environment. Otherwise we share about 98.8% of the same DNA !

Humans and chimps share a surprising 98.8 percent of their DNA.

So Much Alike...
Human and chimp DNA is so similar because the two species are so closely related. Humans, chimps and bonobos descended from a single ancestor species that lived six or seven million years ago.
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This must have been soon after the chromosomal mutation occurred.
As humans and chimps gradually evolved from a common ancestor, their DNA, passed from generation to generation, changed too. In fact, many of these DNA changes led to differences between human and chimp appearance and behavior.
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https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/pe...ing-our-past/dna-comparing-humans-and-chimps#

I believe this chance fusion of two chromosomes into one single larger chromosome is what set humans on a different evolutionary trajectory from other apes. IMO, this is a logically defensible proposition.
 
Write4U said:
Well yes, of course there is but consider that humans are the only apes with 46 chromosomes and that all other apes are relatively of the same intellect with 48 pr chromosomes.

All other differences are either cosmetic or adaptions to the environment. Otherwise we share about 98.8% of the same DNA !

Humans and chimps share a surprising 98.8 percent of their DNA.

This must have been soon after the chromosomal mutation occurred.
https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/pe...ing-our-past/dna-comparing-humans-and-chimps#

I believe this chance fusion of two chromosomes into one single larger chromosome is what set humans on a different evolutionary trajectory from other apes. IMO, this is a logically defensible proposition.
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The larynx , vocal chords . Is the difference . Which is more advanced in Humans than any other primate . More complex communication between Humans . Leads to more advanced intelligence .
 
river said:
The larynx , vocal chords . Is the difference . Which is more advanced in Humans than any other primate . More complex communication between Humans . Leads to more advanced intelligence .
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IMO, it leads to greater knowledge, not necessarily intelligence.
First, I believe you underestimate the range of communication that other biology employs which is outside the ability of humans. Many anymals have natural communication tools that far outstrip the natural sensory communication tools of humans (we augment our sensory limitations with AI).

But I will agree that sophisticated communication does increase the knowledge of those who are exposed to sophisticated communication. And no one claims that a bacterium is as smart as a human, yet bacteria can act in concert based on very specific species oriented language codes. See bacterial "quorum sensing" (Bonnie Bassler).

Bacteria are some of the oldest living organisms on earth and "communication" already begins its evolutionary path with these single-celled organisms in an ever-increasing sophistication and complexity in parallel with the evolution of more and greater sophisticated and complex multicellular organisms.
 
Write4U said:
IMO, it leads to greater knowledge, not necessarily intelligence.
First, I believe you underestimate the range of communication that other biology employs which is outside the ability of humans. Many anymals have natural communication tools that far outstrip the natural sensory communication tools of humans (we augment our sensory limitations with AI).

But I will agree that sophisticated communication does increase the knowledge of those who are exposed to sophisticated communication. And no one claims that a bacterium is as smart as a human, yet bacteria can act in concert based on very specific species oriented language codes. See bacterial "quorum sensing" (Bonnie Bassler).

Bacteria are some of the oldest living organisms on earth and "communication" already begins its evolutionary path with these single-celled organisms in an ever-increasing sophistication and complexity in parallel with the evolution of more and greater sophisticated and complex multicellular organisms.
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Never built a rocket .
 
Write4U said:
Don't need to build them. They hitch rides inside humans or the rockets humans build.
Clever strategy.....-_O
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Sterile environment these rockets . Get your point though .

Holistic communication by the Brain of the whole brings forth consciousness . If this didn't happen then it would be disconbobulation of the brain . No parts of the brain communicating with any other .

And never produced the Larynx .
 
The brain gives consciousness a place to become . And then evolve . Consciousness won't evolve floating around in empty space . Not in the beginning of intelligent Life's intellect .
 
river said:
Sterile environment these rockets . Get your point though .

Holistic communication by the Brain of the whole brings forth consciousness . If this didn't happen then it would be disconbobulation of the brain . No parts of the brain communicating with any other .
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Watch:
And never produced the Larynx .
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Listen:

No Larynx but a Syrinx
Built to Sing: The Syrinx of the Northern Cardinal. While the human voicebox can produce only one sound at a time, a bird's syrinx is a paired structure that allows birds to sing complex, fast-paced songs. Located where the bronchial tubes from each lung come together, both sides are equally capable of producing sound.
https://academy.allaboutbirds.org/b...cebox can,equally capable of producing sound.
https://academy.allaboutbirds.org/built-to-sing-the-syrinx-of-the-northern-cardinal/#
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river said:
The brain gives consciousness a place to become . And then evolve . Consciousness won't evolve floating around in empty space . Not in the beginning of intelligent Life's intellect .
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Define consciousness. Note: the importance of the suffix .....-ness which indicates an abstract "universal" quality.

Universal (metaphysics)
In metaphysics, a universal is what particular things have in common, namely characteristics or qualities. In other words, universals are repeatable or recurrent entities that can be instantiated or exemplified by many particular things.[1]
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For example, suppose there are two chairs in a room, each of which is green. These two chairs both share the quality of "chairness", as well as greenness or the quality of being green; in other words, they share a "universal". There are three major kinds of qualities or characteristics: types or kinds (e.g. mammal), properties (e.g. short, strong), and relations (e.g. father of, next to). These are all different types of universals.[2]
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and

Ness-ity-hood principle[edit]
The ness-ity-hood principle is used mainly by English-speaking philosophers to generate convenient, concise names for universals or properties.[8] According to the Ness-Ity-Hood Principle, a name for any universal may be formed by taking the name of the predicate and adding the suffix "ness", "ity", or "hood".
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For example, the universal that is distinctive of left-handers may be formed by taking the predicate "left-handed" and adding "ness", which yields the name "left-handedness".
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The principle is most helpful in cases where there is not an established or standard name of the universal in ordinary English usage: What is the name of the universal distinctive of chairs? "Chair" in English is used not only as a subject (as in "The chair is broken"), but also as a predicate (as in "That is a chair"). So to generate a name for the universal distinctive of chairs, take the predicate "chair" and add "ness", which yields "chairness".
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Now consider the implication of the term "CONSCIOUSNESS". What does that really mean?

IMO, it includes acquired abilities that are a functional result of evolution via natural selection of successful survival strategies.

I listed "quorum sensing " before and that is a purely chemical language, but remarkably each separate species of bacteria has its own intra-species language which cannot be used by other bacteria.
However, they also have an inter-species language by which they communicate with other species of bacteria.
Bonnie Bassler calls it the bacterial Esperanto.

IMO, this species specific separation of chemical "words" is a functional proto-model of an ability to communicate.
Once a successful survival strategy is established, by any means, it has become part of the natural world and subject to evolutionary processes.
 
river said:
No parts of the brain communicating with any other.
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On second thought, I'm not sure what you mean by this. Unless you mean intraspecies communication as I already explained, if you mean internal communication inside the brain internal, this may explain our astounding mental abilities as compared to other living organisms.

The brain alone has 125 trillion data sharing (communicating) synaptic neural connections in the cerebral cortex, let alone throughout the rest of the body's neural network.

Stunning details of brain connections revealed
"In a human, there are more than 125 trillion synapses just in the cerebral cortex alone," said Smith. That's roughly equal to the number of stars in 1,500 Milky Way galaxies, he noted. Nov 17, 2010
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101117121803.htm#

Brain cell differences could be key to learning in humans and AI
Date: October 6, 2021
Source: Imperial College London

Summary:
Researchers have found that variability between brain cells might speed up learning and improve the performance of the brain and future AI.
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upload_2021-10-16_23-32-9.png
Artificial intelligence concept, computer chip (stock image).
Credit: © vchalup / stock.adobe.com

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/10/211006112626.htm

p.s. And we always end up with a concept that specific patterns rather than just physical properties may yield consciousness. (Tegmark)
 
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Write4U said:
On second thought, I'm not sure what you mean by this. Unless you mean intraspecies communication as I already explained, if you mean internal communication inside the brain internal, this may explain our astounding mental abilities as compared to other living organisms.

The brain alone has 125 trillion data sharing (communicating) synaptic neural connections in the cerebral cortex, let alone throughout the rest of the body's neural network.

Stunning details of brain connections revealed

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101117121803.htm#

Brain cell differences could be key to learning in humans and AI
Date: October 6, 2021
Source: Imperial College London

Summary:
View attachment 4478
Artificial intelligence concept, computer chip (stock image).
Credit: © vchalup / stock.adobe.com

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/10/211006112626.htm

p.s. And we always end up with a concept that specific patterns rather than just physical properties may yield consciousness. (Tegmark)
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To the p.s. ; what are these ; concept specific patterns based on ?
 
Electronics is not the Brain , Nervous System .

I have wondered , sometimes , where we would be , in the money spent on AI research , were directed towards our , Human full potential research .
 
river said:
To the p.s. ; what are these ; concept specific patterns based on ?
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system patterns that allow for Integrated data processing (Tononi, Tegmark, Penrose, Hameroff)
river said:
Electronics is not the Brain , Nervous System .
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They are in artificial intelligence.
I have wondered , sometimes , where we would be , in the money spent on AI research , were directed towards our, Human full potential research .
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I believe we already are doing massive research in the function of MT in relation to dynamical data processing. It's just that here we are operating at nanoscale and there are severe observational limitations.

What are microtubules used in?
Microtubules are major components of the cytoskeleton. They are found in all eukaryotic cells, and they are involved in mitosis, cell motility, intracellular transport, and maintenance of cell shape. Microtubules are composed of alpha- and beta-tubulin subunits assembled into linear protofilaments.
https://www.nature.com/scitable/content/microtubules-the-basics-14673338/
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Perhaps this is exactly where AI may be useful in modelling various types of brains and brain patterns at microscale which can be designed and built for testing emergent computing phenomena.

GPT3 is already built on a microscale functional model of the human brain and is trained to think in human ways. Once a functional pattern is established we can begin to think about reducing it to nanoscale (molecular) proportions.

p.s. technology already uses artificial MT for various data processing purposes.

continued.......
 
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