Is Science a value system?

Discussion in 'The Cesspool' started by Magical Realist, Jan 15, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,871
    Why did you bother to go to college if you aren't interested in an education?

    You do agree that someone had to have an education to design the truck that you delivered packages from. I agree that there isn't much education that is "required" to deliver packages.
     
  2. Guest Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,691
    I quoted what was posted in this thread as an example of science leading to value judgments. That's what you requested and I provided it.
     
  4. Guest Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,691
    Moving the goalposts from scientific knowledge to education? I never equated the two. You did. Many, if not most, people acquire educations that have nothing to do with science. I guess those would be invalid educations in your little world.

    Henry Ford actually had precious little formal education. He worked mainly as an apprentice. What a failure he was eh?
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2015
  6. Guest Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    27,543

    I see it as a more stupid conclusion to arrive at rather then blasphemous.
     
  8. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,871
    I don't have any (formal) scientific education (beyond the basics). I'm equating knowledge to education.

    You don't care about scientific knowledge so why care about any knowledge. History doesn't make your life better nor does any other education that you don't use if that's the way you want to look at it.

    That's not (obviously) how I look at it. I'm also quite sure that my world is bigger than yours

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2015
  9. Jason.Marshall Banned Banned

    Messages:
    654

    Awe...this can be compared to the difference of thinking in a checkers mentally versus a chess mentally the former will not know when its time to change gears and push the turbo button...lol. After all "Logic is triumphant over all" and God has made it so, he is neither science or religion but has inspired the creation of both.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2015
  10. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,691

    Probably most the knowledge we gain about the world and which we use in our daily lives is learned apart from any education. Education is book learning. Knowledge otoh is much broader and includes practical "how to" things that we learn by doing and practice. Book learning can be useful. It can also be irrelevant. As in the case of much of science.
     
  11. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    27,543
    Ignoring the idiocy that is evident in some posts, I have posted many benefits of Astronomy/cosmology that are unchallenged in that regards.
    Let's look at Meteorology and Agriculture and the advantage Satellites have given us in both these disciplines. The improved forecasting, the mapping of lands and information gained in when, where and what crops to plant has in reality reduced the incidence of hunger and poverty somewhat, and will continue to improve in that regards, perhaps even eliminating it.

    That's just a tiny example of how science has unquestionably helped human kind.

    To question that fact, with such negativity and personal unsupported opinions, makes one wonder why our friend Magical Realist, does not go find an Island somewhere, off the beaten track, away from all civilisation, without all mod cons, including cooking utensils etc and put his unsupported hypothesis to work.
    Science/knowledge [under many names] has been benefiting mankind since we climbed down out of the trees.
     
  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    27,543
    And as is also the case with day dreaming and silly personal philosophies.
     
    Seattle likes this.
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    27,543
    SCIENCE IS KNOWLEDGE
     
  14. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,691
    LOL! I'd put far more trust in what an uneducated farmer tells me about growing crops than in what some scientist says about it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2015
  15. Jason.Marshall Banned Banned

    Messages:
    654
    "since we climbed down out of the trees.[/QUOTE]"

    The tree of knowledge of good and evil...lol? Then you shall surely die...for mankind has descended into the lower realms of duality and now remain in sin. They have fallen from grace lost their wings and now a slave to gravity for the apple shall hit them on the tops of their heads...These are metaphors meditate on them intensely.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2015
  16. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,871
    Many farmers in the U.S. are educated and went to college. I'm guessing you didn't do well in school. Otherwise, why the disdain for education?
     
  17. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,691
    Irrelevant. I'd still put more trust in practical on the job knowledge than on scientific theories and
    facts.


    I'm guessing you have a need to insult me because you have no replies to my points..
     
  18. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,871
    I've posted many times in this thread to which you have had no response. Go back and read the thread.

    You seem to have no point beyond some Luddite position that education is bad.
     
  19. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,691
    Science is a subcategory of knowledge. But there are many other forms of knowledge. Knowing how to drive a car or use language isn't science for example.
     
  20. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,691
    I don't respond to trolling or attempts to derail the thread into irrelevant ad homs about how I am.
     
  21. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,871
    I don't think anyone has argued that science was all knowledge nor has anyone argued that knowing how to drive a car wasn't knowledge or was science.

    Astrophysics (for example) has resulted in the material benefits that others have already pointed out but it's also important for many of the same reasons that discovery has always been important to man.

    It also answers many of the questions that some turn to religion for. Where did we come from, how do things work, answering some of the bigger questions and in the case of science not answering ones for which there is no answer yet.
     
  22. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,691
    It depends on how one interprets the statement "Science is Knowledge". Does that mean science is an INSTANCE of knowledge, or does it mean all knowledge is science. If it was meant in the former way, then I'm mistaken. Yes, science is definitely an instance of knowledge.

    The problem goes back to my OP...how does value get assigned to mere factual or theoretical information? Technology is perhaps the main way we make scientific knowledge valuable to us. Much as a tree is given value by a man with an ax who needs to build a home. What I'm saying is that this value is not inherent to the knowledge, any more than a tree has inherent value just because it can be used for its wood to build a house. WE give science value in the way we use the information. Information which in itself could be used for good or for evil depending on the person. A serial killer for example may use science to achieve his own horrendous ends. Does that mean science is therefore inherently bad or evil? No..and so it must follow that just because we turn scientific knowledge into things that benefit our society doesn't mean that knowledge is inherently good or morally virtuous. The information is value neutral UNTIL we use it to achieve some desired end or goal. See what I'm saying?

    Knowledge of where we came from is essentially value neutral. It doesn't avail us either way to know or not to know that we evolved from lesser organisms. Likewise knowing how things work doesn't have value in itself either. It may satisfy our curiosity. But it really has no purpose to us unless we can apply that knowledge to our own ends. Only then do the facts assume an importance to us they didn't have before. An importance entirely relative to how well we can apply those facts towards achieving what we value. And even THEN that purpose we make of the facts may be helpful to others, or just to ourselves, or even harmful to others.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2015
  23. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,051
    I know this is late, but it seems like the first few posts went off in the wrong direction, so:
    No. Science is a method for investigating the natural world. But it does utilize certain values in the method. Logic instead of emotion, honesty, openness, open mindedness, etc.
    Kind of. Because science helps identify how reality works, it can provide answers that certain value systems would otherwise seek through thought alone. So it can prove the conclusions of certain value systems objectively. Ultimately, values are a matter of pure opinion, but when value systems try to explain reality, then science can step in and be the judge. For example:
    1. Inequality is unfair. Value. Completely opinion-based.
    2. Inequality is unfair because it causes poverty. Conclusion about how the world works. Can be tested scientifically.
    You are misreading the situation. Because science is a method, it can be used as a tool. But that doesn't mean science itself endorses anything. It's a bit like saying that Ford advocates plumbing because plumbers use Ford cargo vans. The reality is that Ford doesn't care if their cargo vans are used by plumbers or delivery-men, as long as people are buying them.
    Well...maybe. Science has an extremely good track record for accuracy, so as a result it can be said to work very well for certain things. For example, it has done a lot better than the Catholic Church in explaining the motion of the planets. Is that a value? No, it's just a factual reality. Is it a result of the values that fit with the scientific process? Yes.
    Science is far and a way the most successful way of investigating how the natural world works.
    Values are opinion-based, so opinions on that will vary.
    That's an obvious tautology and therefore meaningless/pointless. A newspaper recycled into a notepad isn't a newspaper anymore. So what?
    You are seeing something that isn't there. The problem you describe would be a problem if it existed -- and any scientists would agree -- but it doesn't exist in any significant volume.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2015
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page