Is Science a value system?

Discussion in 'The Cesspool' started by Magical Realist, Jan 15, 2015.

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  1. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    Again : Is Science a value system?

    It would appear from numerous responses, that, at least as far as sciforums.com is concerned, Science is a Value System!

    It would appear that the perceptions and beliefs of someone who has zero to very little actual education in any True Science Discipline, possibly any Discipline, for that matter - should have those perceptions/beliefs of and on Science as holding more "Value" than most other Posters.

    So..."then" and "than" are interchangeable words...
    So..."there" and "their" are interchangeable words...

    So...Magical Realist, as far as sciforums.com is concerned...Science evidently IS a Value System...
    ...if one Values Personal Attacks, Ad Hominem Attacks and Childish Arguing...in lieu of intelligent discussion...
     
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  3. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    A nice article illustrating the benefits of science to mankind particularly the astronomy/cosmology sciences and space endeavours........

    How Astronomy Benefits Society and Humankind
    by SHANNON HALL on NOVEMBER 11, 2013

    With an annual cost of $30.8 million, the Keck Observatory costs $53.7 thousand for a single night’s worth of operation. It will cost the James Webb Space Telescope approximately $8.8 billion to reach orbit. And the Space Launch System that will carry the Orion capsule is expected to cost $38 billion.

    Why should we be spending such a vast amount of money on astronomy? How is it useful and beneficial to society?

    Astronomers face this question on a daily basis. Recently a ream of European astronomers have provided tangible answers relating advancements in astronomy to advancements in industry, aerospace, energy, medicine, international collaboration, everyday life and humankind.


    “I get this question quite often,” Dr. Marissa Rosenberg, lead author on the paper, told Universe Today. “One very personal reason for writing this article is that I wanted to share with my parents (both business people) why what I am doing is important and a necessary facet of society.”

    Today, millions of people across the world are affected by advances in astronomy.

    Industry

    — Your iPhone’s camera is a charge-coupled device (CCD) — an instrument, which converts the movement of electrical charge into a digital value. Originally developed for astronomy, CCD’s are now used in most cameras, webcams and cell phones.

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    Every iPhone with has a built-in CCD

    — The computer language Forth, originally developed for the 36-foot telescope on Kitt Peak is now used by FedEx to track packages.

    — AT&T uses IRAF — software written by the National Optical Astronomy Observatory — to analyze computer systems.

    — Kodak film, originally created by astronomers studying the sun, is used extensively by the medical and industrial industries, photographers and artists.

    Aerospace

    — Space-based telescopes have advanced defense satellites, which require identical technology and hardware.

    — Global Positioning System satellites rely on astronomical objects — quasars and distant galaxies — to determine accurate positions.

    Energy

    — Technology gained from imaging X-rays is now used to monitor fusion — where two atomic nuclei combine to form a heavier nucleus — that may prove to be our answer for clean energy.

    Medicine

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    Magnetic resonance imaging utilizes aperture synthesis – first an astronomical technique and now a medical technique.

    Astronomy struggles to see increasingly faint objects; Medicine struggles to see things obscured within the human body.

    — Aperture synthesis — the process of combining data from multiple telescopes to produce a single image seemingly created from a telescope the size of the entire collection — first developed by a radio astronomer has been used for multiple medical imaging tools, including CAT scanners and MRIs.

    — Building space-based telescopes requires an extremely clean environment in order to avoid dust particles from obscuring the mirrors or instruments. Similar methods and instruments are now used in hospitals and pharmaceutical labs.

    International Collaboration

    — Collaboration also inspires competition. The Space Race — a competition between the Soviet Union and the United States for supremacy in space exploration — landed Neil Armstrong, Michael Collins and Buzz Aldrin on the moon.

    — Astronomy is a collaborative effort. In 1887 astronomers from around the world pooled their telescope images in order to create the first map of the entire sky. Today, astronomers travel around the globe to attend conferences, learn from one another, and utilize telescopes elsewhere.

    Everyday Life

    — Airports utilize advances in technology designed for astronomy. X-ray observatory technology is used in X-ray luggage belts. A gas chromatograph — an instrument designed for a Mars mission — is used to analyze luggage for explosives.

    — Stephen Hawking’s “A Brief History of Time” has sold over 10 million copies. Carl Sagan’s television series “Cosmos: A Personal Voyage” has been watched in over 60 countries.

    Humankind

    “Perhaps the most important reason to study astronomy is that astronomy seeks to satisfy our fundamental curiosity about the world we live in, and answer the ‘big’ questions,” Dr. Rosenberg told Universe Today. “How was the universe created? Where did we come from? Are there other intelligent life forms?”

    Every advance in astronomy moves society closer to being able to answer these questions. With advanced technology — increasingly complex CCDs and larger ground- and space-based telescopes — we have peered into the distant, early universe, we have searched for habitable worlds, and we have come to the conclusion that we, ourselves, are stardust.

    “Astronomy constantly reminds people of two seemingly contradictory things. First that the universe is infinite and we are of but the tiniest fraction of importance. And Second that life is rare and precious. A home as beautiful and unique as earth does not come often. We must protect it.”

    An upcoming version of this paper will not only cover the tangible aspects of astronomy discussed here, but also the intangible aspects of astronomy.

    The paper has been accepted has been published on the International Astronomical Union website and is available for download here.
     
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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    http://www.iau.org/public/themes/why_is_astronomy_important/

    Summary
    In the above text we have outlined both the tangible and intangible reasons that astronomy is an important part of society. Although we have focused mainly on the technology and knowledge transfer, perhaps the most important contribution is still the fact that astronomy makes us aware of how we fit into the vast Universe. The American astronomer Carl Sagan showed us one of astronomy’s simplest and most inspirational contributions to society in his book, The Pale Blue Dot:

    It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we’ve ever known.”
     
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  7. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    I actually remembering watching the original "Cosmos". It bought the LP soundtrack of it by Vangelis.
    It was a wholly spiritual experience to me, of a perspective granted by Sagan's elegant and poetic prose .It might've even been one the turning points of my turning away from religion to science as the truth-revealing vision for our species. But in fact these are all moral values that are not found in the scientific perspective itself. Nothing in science suggests mankind should survive over any of the other millions of species on our planet. Indeed, going by the mere effects we have had on nature, it would seem we have very little value to the overall experiment of life in the universe. And how dare we suppose we are the lone intelligences in over 100 billion galaxies? Does it dramatize our plight to think so much is riding on OUR survival? That life could certainly not have evolved anywhere else to such an advanced degree, either now or in the future? I don't DISvalue the human adventure. But I insist there is nothing in our cosmic situation that shows us to be any more valuable than any other species. Should we go extinct, the universe will continue right along as it has, emerging with novel and extraordinary phenomena that we have yet to even imagine.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2015
  8. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    One almost wonders if the fans of science here aren't abit embarrassed by Paddoboy's repetitive namecalling, personalized accusations, and postings of the same material over and over again. If I were defending science as a value system, I certainly wouldn't want such theatrical immaturity representing MY team. I AM grateful for the calm and reasoned responses so far though. Yazata and ExChemist for example.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2015
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  9. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    As one layman to another dmoe, I wouldn't be so hard on yourself, or of any of the perceptions and beliefs of the many other layman that frequent this forum.
    Newton once said words to the effect that he sees as far as he does by standing on the shoulders of giants.
    Just as I have done, and that any scientists worth their salt would do, you need to accept that truism.
    But as I also said earlier, without science, and the obvious benefits throughout the ages, we would be still swinging in the trees.
    Science is knowledge, and knowledge is indispensable in improving and benefiting the human race.
    And as I also said,this thread is not really about science and whether it is a value system or not. That simply was just a disguise that many of the anti science brigade use to promote their philosophical crap.

    Perhaps the question should be asked dmoe, why do these persons come here?
    Because they are shut out of all other forms of science disciplines and shunned for their nonsensical crap by the halls of academia.

    Take it easy ol matey, keep the disprin handy, and see what is staring you in the face.

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  10. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Science made us evolve into upright bipedal tool-using nomads? I find that a ludicrous claim.
     
  11. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Isn't that exactly what Sagan was trying to get across?

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    The answer to the question of ETI elswhere in the Universe, is factually "WE DO NOT KNOW".
    But also just as factually we do not find too many cosmologists, that considering the near infinite numbers involved with planets, stars and galaxies, just within the observable Universe, and the fact that the "stuff of life" is everywhere we look, that do not reason that life should be plentiful, at all levels.
    That again, is the message that Carl was trying to get across.
    Knowledge advances the human race. And that advancement encapsulates many benefits. Those same advancements through knowledge, may one day see us undertaking stellar voyages, and possibly extending the extinction date of the human race beyond that of the Sun and Solar system.
     
  12. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    again : ...if one Values Personal Attacks, Ad Hominem Attacks and Childish Arguing...in lieu of intelligent discussion...
     
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And who is making unsupported accusations now MR?
    Again, I say with utmost certainty, and as most her would agree, anyone who claims or believes science has not benefited mankind is dumb.
    That's akin to saying eating and drinking does not benefit mankind....yes most certainly dumb.
     
  14. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Pot, kettle, black!

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  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Except I didn't make that claim.
    Now if you want to be obtuse then go right ahead, no skin off my nose.
    I'm sure most not burdened with agendas and excess baggage will recognise the analogy that is obvious in what I said.
     
  16. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Nice post which I had missed and which has heaps of truth within it.
     
  17. river

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    MR

    In your last three sentences , your right , we aren't that special in the big picture of the Universe

    Thats been my point , in the end

    Humanity on the whole doesn't envision the big picture , the Universe

    We need to understand that our very survival as an intelligent being on this planet depends souly on us , period

    Generally we don't seem to get this
     
  18. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    "Will always"? That sounds like an expression of faith to me. I can easily imagine the possibility that "bio-hackers" might someday unleash genetically-engineered plague viruses.

    Science produces knowledge. Knowledge often serves as the basis for technology, giving mankind the means to achieve whatever its ends are. But science doesn't tell us what those ends should be, what human beings should properly desire and strive towards.

    Science isn't the compass that gives the correct direction to progress. (If there is a correct direction.) It doesn't mark out right and wrong, or even desireable and undesireable.

    It's about confusing science and ethics. It's about David Hume's 'is-ought distinction'.

    When people equate 'science' with 'good', any perceived doubts or questions about science must therefore be expressions of evil, and elicit an aggressive response.

    Condescension won't win arguments.
     
  19. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    More an expression of optimistic likelyhood, evidenced on past experiences, then pessimism based on philosophical banter.


    Possibly so, but science is the imputus and drive towards what ends we desire to achieve.
    Again, I see an optimistic approach as more realistic than any pessimism which does not get us very far.

    Science is knowledge, and knowledge is indispensable in improving and benefiting the human race.
    And as I also said,this thread is not really about science and whether it is a value system or not. That simply was just a disguise that many of the anti science brigade use to promote their philosophical crap.

    Actually the reverse is true. It's the evil intent by fanatical God Botherers, that see science as a threat in invalidating their deity of choice, and the anti science measures so cunningly disguised as this thread is, designed to elicit a response from the more logical responsible appreciators of science that is more closer to reality than your dreatime fairy tale.
    Afterall, it is a science forum.

    Perhaps you need to address those remarks to the person who has this fanatical interest in me, and seems to want to avenge what he imagines as past wrongs. Quite extraordinary conduct actually that has seen the need for mod intervention in recent times.
     
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  20. kilao Registered Member

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    As these showed, could you live without science? We can live so happy is all thanks to the progress of science.
     
  21. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Exactly!
    Just our simple "mundane" Satellites we all take for granted, has benefited us in eliminating poverty and hunger, in their many applications to Agriculture, Meteorology and GPS tracking and positioning technology.
     
  22. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    I am not at all sure who this "we" are that you speak of!
    Nor who this "us" is!

    Myself , I "take" nothing for "granted" and the world that I live in has not "benefited" by having poverty and hunger eliminated...and certainly not by "Satellites"!!!

    So, paddoboy, have "Satellites" eliminated poverty and hunger in your world?
     
  23. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    Mod Hat
    Quit trolling and being deliberately obtuse - Paddoboy's intent with that post is quite clear, as is how satellites have helped reduce poverty and hunger.
     
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