If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Greatest I am, Aug 5, 2013.

  1. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    That's very interesting, and I can't say I haven't thought of it. Science is continuously evolving, (or man merely discovers its evolution as time creeps forward)

    I can't help but wonder if we are too, physiologically.
     
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  3. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    Physiology - I used to study that. For sure evolution would be a progress in physiology as well as a change in anatomy.
    But what then is a perfect MAN (that's a species)?
    I think it is something that has clicked in their brains, their consciousness has altered. Imagine if we were all like Christ. We are after all Christians, followers, but how close can we get?

    Physiology: is the scientific study of function in living systems. This includes how organisms, organ systems, organs, cells, and bio-molecules carry out the chemical or physical functions that exist in a living system.

    Physiologically - possibly this fits best - "Being in accord with or characteristic of the normal functioning of a living organism."

    So maybe evolution toward MAN is a more a psychological change.

    This then makes one "walk the walk and talk the talk", but only as the first step. Like no longer dragging our knuckles we stood upright, but now we have to learn to walk in a newer way.
    Up-righteous not just upright.
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/uprighteousness
    "Origin of UPRIGHTEOUSNESS

    blend of upright and righteousness"
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2013
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  5. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    geeser

    "If you mean your above essay, well it may be logical, but it doesn't show anything is perfect, does it."


    Yes it does.

    If it is logical that we live in the only possible world and that it is therefore the best of all possible worlds, then that makes it perfect at any given point I time.

    If things are the best, best has perfect as it’s quality.

    Regards
    DL
     
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  7. geeser Atheism:is non-prophet making Valued Senior Member

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    How so explain! Using the definition of perfection.

    Unless you have changed the definition, it cant be perfection.

    So I take it you are using your own definition for the term perfection.

    In that case ugly would fit.
    Because ugly is the best ugly we can get thus it must be perfect. Using your own reasoning.
     
  8. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    If ugly is the criteria, sure.

    If we say that something is the best it can be, is that not the same as saying it is perfect or as perfect as it can be?

    I thing I can in the way I use language. You cannot get better than best or perfect at any given point in time and that allows for that best or perfect to evolve to a more perfect state.

    Regards
    DL
     
  9. geeser Atheism:is non-prophet making Valued Senior Member

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    No! Far from it! It is what it says, the best it could be. For a thing to be perfect it would be free from any flaw or defect in condition or quality;(Thus more than the best. the best is an approximation of perfection, but far from perfect)precisely accurate;(Thus more than the best. the best is an approximation of perfection, but far from perfect) exactly right;(Thus more than the best. the best is an approximation of perfection, but far from perfect) absolute;(Thus more than the best. the best is an approximation of perfection, but far from perfect) complete; finished.(Thus more than the best. the best is an approximation of perfection, but far from perfect) Thus in need or want, of nothing. So! So much more than the best it could be.

    Yet it will never reach perfection. Being in a more perfect state, does not make it perfect. Just better than it was before. If it is still evolving it isn't perfect. It still needs or wants something, perfection does not.
     
  10. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    That is why I offer the terms evolving perfection and a more perfect state.

    Because the bible uses perfect for works, us, who are clearly evolving.

    If I use your definition then I concede your point.

    If I use the U S way of using perfect and more perfect, and using the word perfect the way it is in scripture, then I do not concede anything.

    Regards
    DL
     
  11. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    I like to use the term evolving perfection for nature. Otherwise, a perfect God or nature becomes a stagnant pool of information and our souls and consciousness as a part of that perfection would be useless to the universe.

    Evolving, the perfection of whatever God and nature was, to whatever God and nature will be, means we have to think this way, unless you see God as somehow losing his initial perfection. This is not allowed in a perfect God’s or natures repertoire.

    When this was written, most thought it to just be a cynical view of life but I think it is quite true and irrefutable, based on the anthropic principle and pure logic.

    What do you think?

    Candide.
    "It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPClzIsYxvA

    This is done by nature and not a God but would be a requirement of a God if he were real.

    Regards
    DL
     
  12. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    The thought that your post inspired was a baby dinosaur being admired by his mummy dinosaur. In her eyes he was perfect, but to us he is UGLY (so ugly that only his mother could love him).
     
  13. geeser Atheism:is non-prophet making Valued Senior Member

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    No! Not my definition the dictionary etc definition.

    I'm not asking you too. I'm merely pointing out the true meaning of perfection, not what other may wish it to mean.

    Heck you even use the correct meaning in the title of the thread.
    Perfection is the ultimate, it neither needs nor wants for anything.
     
  14. geeser Atheism:is non-prophet making Valued Senior Member

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    Sweet. Nice thought.
    However ugly is a term we humans created, I'm sure the dinosaur mother didn't even think in those terms. to her it was instinctual. As it would be for most human mothers with ugly children. However no child be they ugly or beautiful could ever be perfect.

    Oh by the way I find beauty in everything. I don't know ugly. It was just to make a point.
     
  15. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Ok but then let me say that we are always good and getting better over time.

    That ignores God and his perfect works but he is of no importance to man's evolution except for slowing it down.

    From YPOV, God cannot be perfect or omnipotent as he ends with needs, --- love and adore me or burn in hell, --- and so do his creations. That is good enough for me as it negates most of what is said of God.

    Regards
    DL
     
  16. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    [video=youtube;G_-nHw0_Fos]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_-nHw0_Fos&feature=player_embedded[/video]

    Yep. There in beauty in all things.

    To fools, --- FMPOV.

    Regards
    DL
     
  17. geeser Atheism:is non-prophet making Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps I shouldn't have said everything and said most things, a fobar on my part.
     
  18. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Respect for a recant that most would not give.
    They are gauche.

    Regards
    DL
     
  19. arauca Banned Banned

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    If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

    Well 10000 years ago they did not have computers , and probably writing was not invented and many translation have been made .
     
  20. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Oh my. That would make churches a backward looking system who would not know what to follow.

    No wonder the morals are so poor in those Abrahamic cults.

    Regards
    DL
     
  21. arauca Banned Banned

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    Are you saying your morals are greater then Rabbi Weizman of the Hasidim group. ?
     
  22. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    I don’t know his morals. We would have to compare.

    Does he put himself above God or somewhere below God?
    Whose God or which of the many biblical Gods does he follow?

    Regards
    DL
     
  23. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    Ducking for cover!
     

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