God and free thought

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Patman, Sep 7, 2001.

  1. Patman just one of the lost Registered Senior Member

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    If there is a God(Denomination not important) would he/she it encourage free thought?
    This one, I wasn't sure where to put it. But I would really like the free thinkers ideas on this one not the bible quoters.
    Why give us the ability to think for ourselves if you just want a bunch of mindless idiots to praise you? (God that is)
     
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  3. piffi Nixed Price Rack Registered Senior Member

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    Well of course God would encourage free thinking...because if He existed, all thought would be in the context of Him, and the most logical and effective thinking would always make obvious His reality...

    Sadly that is not the case here...for that reason I don't think the God we thought of encourages free thinking. It's not our fault we created a view of the world that was a bit too secure in the arrogancy of its beliefs...but it's just gotten outdated. we have a vision for the future today that can work better in society and we should seize the oppurtunity to modernize our vuew of the world...of course the most basic human values should be kept, but God can be put into a better context today with more relevant ideas.
     
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  5. Ankit The Angel Registered Senior Member

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    What's this?

    God cannot possibly have encouraged free thought...because then we woul have questioned its actions and motives. Hm?
     
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  7. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    Remember the story of adam and eve, they ate the apple because they wanted to be smart like god, so they ended up thinking freely and discovering. So my point - ofcoarse he supports free thinking, isnt that the point??
     
  8. Deadwood Registered Senior Member

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    Of course God likes us to think freely. But you know what He loves even more? For us to come and ask Him.
     
  9. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    Good question! I would think just the opposite. Without free thought; if a God truely wanted worship and homage and nothing else then intellegent questioning would get in the way of that.
     
  10. glaucon tending tangentially Moderator

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    The problem here is, you are of course, assuming that a deity would behave logically. Furthermore, you assume that the dieties' logic would be similar to our own human logic.
    Perhaps it would be in the god's best interest (assuming it cared) to not promote free thought.....
     
  11. Ankit The Angel Registered Senior Member

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    Glaucon

    That is concisely my point.
     
  12. synaesthesia Registered Senior Member

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    "If there is a God(Denomination not important) would he/she it encourage free thought?"

    As if there is any criterion of deciding amongst the false gods. (That's all of them plus one.

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    ) Yes, of course God would support free thought, he loves his children and wants them to grow in knowledge. No, of course God despises free thought, his children must have faith in him. This is the realm of counterfactuall, there is no right answer.

    Elbaz said, much to my surprise:
    "Remember the story of adam and eve, they ate the apple because they wanted to be smart like god, so they ended up thinking freely and discovering. So my point - of coarse he supports free thinking, isnt that the point??"

    The point of the story, in it's current biblical form (it has, of course, evolved over the years) is that the forbidden fruit was produced by the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam was punished because he was seeking for wisdom outside of God. God, as we all know, punishes not only our hapless hero and heroin but condemns all of humanity to a world with suffering and misery.

    But on to more serious matters. How many angels can stand on the head of a pin? How many can dance? Is dance an ineffable power that only spritual creatures that posess?

    Regards,
    Synaesthesia
    "Reductionism is a dirty word, and a kind of 'holistier than thou' self-righteousness has become fashionable." -Richard Dawkins
     
  13. kmguru Staff Member

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    It is the humans who discourage free thought...sometimes, in the name of God!
     
  14. Ankit The Angel Registered Senior Member

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    Let's Look At This Philosophically...

    Free thought is often the anti-thesis of faith, so, by default, God could not have encourage free thought (for he requires blind faith, despite the many disasters that occur every year, we apparently have to continue to believe in him; "he is testing our faith", apparently).

    Bull.
     
  15. Patman just one of the lost Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks for the replies
    Now if we were created by God in his own image(I think that's right?) and he encourages free thought, how could it be wrong to question him/her, it? The way I see it an all powerful being that wanted mindless followers would have ended everything in the great flood and started over, or would something like that be admitting that even he/she, it is a screw up and makes mistakes.(Trust me I KNOW this is getting whacky

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    )
    Knowing God is not perfect (ouch! Gonna' hear it for that one.) do you think it's possible that God could possibly trying to understand his own creation, a live and learn type of thing. Just because he/she, it has the power to create or destroy doesn't make he/she, it any smarter then any of us. Because we all ready know he/she, it makes mistakes.(The flood thingy)
    If I where an arrogant deity with a chip on my shoulder and I read, say what I am writing right now this post would not get finished. I would just knock off the poor bastard and move on to the next poor bastard in line. And trust me the line is long.
    O.K. How about this think of God as your father(really as like your father) proud of your accomplishment, proud to say hey look at my son/daughter how smart he/she is all ready smarter then me, gonna' be a great person some day. The child would love their father but not worship him. So in this frame of mind, the father would never condemn the child to a life in hell because the child never worshipped him. Then the child becomes a professional athlete gets on TV and the first thing the child says as the camera pass's by is "Hi Mom!" The father still won't send the child to hell. Now that's a loving father as far as I remember. Just a thought or two. (NO I DID NOT START SMOKING POT

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    ) Just couldn't stop punching keys.

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    I think my heads going to explode, sorry if this babble doesn't make senes.
     
  16. Deadwood Registered Senior Member

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    Hey Patman, I think it may be best if you lose the Christian stereotypes.

    Who's saying it is wrong. People don't like quoting the bible so I will let them do the work by reading Isaiah and finding out.

    God flooded the Earth because Mankind was consumed with evil. This isn't God's fault, we are the ones whom He gave thought to and we chose evil. I wouldn't like to have lived in the time just before the flood. You would get raped, thieved, murdered, coveted. Not a nice place at all. So if people complain about today think twice before blaming God, it is humans who are evil. and yet it is those same people who complain about how God could let this place be so evil,think that God was evil for flooding the place to get rid of evil. A bit of a catch 22 lose-lose situation?

    Again, Christian stereotype. But you being able to finish this post would tell you that God is not as you say.

    If God is all ready all powerful why would He need an ego trip. My logic says if you can not be any more powerful, you have no need for an ego. People only have ego's because they want other people to think of them as better than they really are. Comes out of a low self esteem I guess?

    God doesn't feed off of human worship if thats what you're thinking? He wants us to worship Him by our own free will which He so gracefully gave us.

    I am hoping this is making sense

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2001
  17. machaon Registered Senior Member

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    God and freethought.

    The words "god" and "freethought" should never be uttered in the same sentence. Humans need god like fish need a bicycle.
     
  18. Ankit The Angel Registered Senior Member

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    Although I am a devout atheist, I disagree with your statement, for without the placebo that is God, many, many people in the world would not be able to survive (in the literal and figurative sense). The belief that God exists instils faith and confidence in the hearts of many, and that is essential for their success.

    Besides, what a shitty and shallow world it would be without the daily struggle of GOD and science? Perhaps the fish does need a bicycle, eh?
     
  19. MuliBoy psykyogi Registered Senior Member

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    My view on the Adam & Eve mythos:

    First there were the animal mind. Man apes. No conscious thought, no moral code just the free spirit of immediate life in the moment. The apple symbolizes individual consciousness. Once that spark of ego is devoured the eden is in effect ruined by man who obtains the ability to manipulate and plan ahead. Morality is something that emerges once a being is able to foresee consequenses to actions.

    Free will is unavailable before there is consciousness and questioning of the way things are. Before one is able to mentally digest the world, experience things and recall them afterwards, one has no ability to question anything.

    If there is a god, he/she made man with the tools to become conscious. The choice to become so was mans, but man was not able to grasp the consequense before it was too late.

    What we are now is the result of a man ape trying to get control over the situation. Consciousness is not easy on the primate but we┬┤ll get there.

    Just one way to think of it. Not my truth

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  20. machaon Registered Senior Member

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    Mabye I was a little harsh(reply to Ankit)

    Yes, Ankit, perhaps I was a little too harsh. Sometimes I forget how much pain and suffering there is on this beautiful and savage planet. If religion can offer someone respite from unbearable pain, then I have absolutely no right to assault their beliefs. I really do love people and I should stop trying to rip the bandages off of hurting souls so that I can throw more salt into the wound. I am not cruel, but I can sometimes be stooopid. I have often lamented the fact that truth is so often a casualty of religion, that I never really pondered the fact that truth is often the pain that religion attempts subdue. I have never really had anything against the average believer, just those who would oppress in the name of religion. And I mean oppression in all forms including thought. I would be happy with a simple mutual tolerance between those who believe in god and practice religion and those who do not. I do despise being judged because I choose to endure the pain that truth can and sometimes does provide rather than shelter myself from it using religion. What can I say? Watch the MATRIX. It states what I am saying quite better than I can.
     
  21. Bebelina Feminazi Messiah Valued Senior Member

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    God and free thought?

    Or should it be God and free will?

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    Anyway, since we are God we have one collective soul besides our individual souls. The collective thought-pool is made up by all the individual thoughts together. And the individual thoughts are also drawn from the collective thought-pool. So there is a spiral that never ends.

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    Then another discussion is that old one about free will and destiny and my thought on that is this: life (free will+heart=destiny)

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    That we have a destiny, or a prefered destination in life, and to get there we must use our free will and follow our hearts.

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  22. Ankit The Angel Registered Senior Member

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    Bingo!

    The Matrix? I remember saying that to someone right here on SciForums...I guess great minds think alike. Anyhoo, on the subject of free thought & God, let me attempt to finish this by saying that, by default, if free thought occurred for more than a millennia within humans, the concept of God would be obfuscated and eventually eradicated; but for the will of righteous men in the shroud of blind faith (very poetic, I know).

    Religious men (oh, ok, men and women) have formed the basis of today's world...they were our philosophers, who, in turn, were our first mathematicians and scientists (which is outrageously ironic when you consider today's battle of science vs religion). Damn it...that means we can't really fault the religious people...they gave us a lot. It IS ironic when you consider that a great proportion of the world's scientists/mathematicians were theists (Einstein, I believe).

    That's all I hav to say for now.

    God Bless.
     
  23. Ankit The Angel Registered Senior Member

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    The Mathematical Mechanics Of Philosophy (?)

    Being an arrogant bastard, I must say that mathematics can solve a lot:

    (to Bebelina)

    I almost agree with your thesis, maybe you could say:

    free thought = free will, then "heart + free thought = destiny".
    But what if "free thought = free will + intelligence ", or
    " destiny = heart + free will + intelligence", assuming we have any of those.

    Then, intelligence = talent/limitation, so destiny=

    "heart + free will/thought + talent/limitation". But what is "heart"?

    Heart (the most complex, philosophically, biologically and psychologically), surely = courage + mental strength + composure all over fear?

    Therefore, destiny = courage + mental strength + composure all over fear + free will(or thought) + talent/limitation.

    There we have it, we can calculate someone's destiny (!) using my intrinsic model...although I am kind of hoping not (by assigning values to all).


    Thank you.

    P.S. Somebody's probably going to post a reply saying: "Ankit, you're right...you ARE an arrogant bastard."
     

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