George Zimmerman found Not Guilty.

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Saturnine Pariah, Jul 14, 2013.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Is it Racism, or Just Shitty Parenting?

    To reiterate the point you're deliberately ignoring:

    So while a judge was willing to enforce the idea of "fleeing" when Marissa Alexander left her home to retrieve the weapon with which she stood off her violent ex-husband, that, well, yeah, by the judge's logic—her stiff sentence was for endangering the children by firing the gun in their presence—she should have abandoned her children to a violent man with a criminal record whose answer to accusations of domestic violence is that he hit each of his five baby-mamas except that one, who is lying.​

    And to think, you claim to be a parent.

    Or is it only the black woman that should abandon her children to the violent criminal?
     
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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    So? The number of source is not the issue, issue is can they actually map out zimmerman and martins movement with such accuracy.

    And that has to do with mapping the movement how?

    Again how does is provide us with an accuracy down to the second map of how these two moved throughout the whole incident? Even to a degree that we could know the martin return to jump zimmerman?

    No it does not, after Zimmerman leaves his car (car door sound) there is no way we could know for sure how he moved, how fast he moved, what direction he moved. All we have for sure is the position of his car, and the murder scene. All the rest is supposition.

    Pure opinion.

    Different path from what... ok lets back up here, can you prove that martin turned back and attacked zimmerman.

    How is this proof martin turned back to attack zimmerman? It is not, for all we know he stood in place and talked to his girlfriend, he got lost in the confusion, who knows!

    Yes your right there is reasonable doubt martin went back for zimmerman. Therefor we can't accept zimmerman account that the person he chased after attacked him as validating his killing.
     
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  5. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    @ Electric Fetus,

    The mapped movements were corroborated. If you have an alternate theory pose it, but timestamps on phone records and videotape do help paint the picture. Take a class in forensics if you are too dim to understand what corroboration, background noises (car door shutting,etc.) can mean in a case. A jury was convinced this was what occurred. This is the common opinion. If you have some fantasy scenario, pose it.

    @ Tiassa,

    Perhaps I am wrong, but everything I see about this Marissa Alexander case says the children belonged to the man and not her. The articles suggest they arrived with him were shot at with him and left with him.

    If they were her children that would mean 2 things.

    A) It would give me reason to believe maybe she was protecting her children and was within her rights
    and
    B) You actually looked at the facts before you started spewing nonsense.

    However I am still not sure these kids were related to her. If she was their mother I apologize. I have only reviewed this case for about 5 minutes. You perhaps are more aware of the situation.


    @ Balerion,

    So where is this evidence that Trayvon was running away from, scared of, or in any way intimidated by Zimmerman? Trayvon was 6'2" tall, had a muscular build, played football, had a reputation as a fighter and was even sought after as a fighting trainer (in phone texts). He was 7' Taller than the fat guy watching him. According to GZ Trayvon circled his truck while walking past and he had to roll up his window to avoid a confrontation. Zimmermans fighting skills were 0.5 out of 10 testified a gym trainer, and he could not fight his way out of a wet paper bag.

    Nobody knows if Trayvon was scared. It is nice that you are PSYCHIC enough to tell us.

    Trayvon did run at several points and the first time was to get out of the rain at the mail shelter. According to Deedee he did not suspect he was being watched at that point in time. Is running in the rain the same as running in fear? Trayvon does not sound like the wimpy guy you suggest he was.
     
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  7. Balerion Banned Banned

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    This is the crap that has to stop. We can do enough damage by using their own words to hurt their credibility; insinuating that their delusions about the Trayvon Martin case make them bad parents is stepping way beyond the line.

    I won't even say I haven't done similar. I'm just saying, let's all make an effort to stop. Our leaders should be setting the example, not giving us an out.
     
  8. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    2,088
    @ Tiassa,

    Nope. I was right the first time. She is a psycho. The children were not hers. She shot at them and not some warning shot into the ceiling. If this was not serious enough charges, as soon as she got out on bail she went to his house and started beating on him in front of his kids.

    I mean if you are going on trial for attempted murder it might seem a bit sane to not attack the same person again. Especially since her defense was that she was deathly afraid of said man. How afraid could she be if she could not keep a peace bond and went straight over to attack him?

    Oh....

    I now think the opposite is true, and your record for spewing nonsense without knowing the facts remains untarnished. Why would I even think otherwise (for all of 10 minutes)?

    RE: My parenting.

    My children have not yet Sold Guns or Beaten up Snitches yet (to my knowledge) which you have told me is common behavior for American Kids, so I think I am doing Okay so far.
     
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    No, first of all you have yet to prove how zimmerman's and martin movement can be tracked accurately throughout the whole incident. By all means if there is a matter of known forensic science then please explain second by second the evidence and the positional result for both individuals, explain to me how this works, that all. If you have the evidence than PROVE the evidence shows that martin turned around and attack zimmerman.
     
  10. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    As you typically do, Tiassa...you make strong points about the SYG laws, and frankly how they seem to be skewed against minorities. And while I'm not into generalizing or 'broad brushing' (

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    ) I think you're right that the SYG law will end up being an acceptable defense more often than not, for those who plot to kill someone, but stage it to look like self defense. (well, it being an 'acceptable' defense depending on who is who in a murder trial) Yikes...That's a pretty sobering idea, when you think about it.

    Did I say...stage?
     
  11. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    2,088
    @ Electric Fetus,

    I have zero interest in describing action by action how the stories and whereabouts were corroborated. Even while on the telephone with police he made statements like "Now he is coming towards me" or "now he's heading up the path which based on average walking speeds and verified by Deedee, etc show where he was parked. Maybe the entire police call was a lie. Maybe GZ and Deedee (Trayvons Girlfriend) were secretly lovers trying to set up Trayvon. It's your fantasy, how do you want to play it out.

    The scenario I posted was based on what was deemed to be the likely scenario painted by multiple sources. I do not give a crap if you do or do not accept it.

    IF - IF - IF Treyvon DID NOT FOLLOW THIS PATH THEN WHERE WAS HE GOING? THIS PATH WAS THE SHORTEST AND MOST DIRECT ROUTE HE COULD POSSIBLY TAKE. IF HE WAS TAKING ANOTHER ROUTE THEN HE WOULD BE RANDOMLY WALKING AROUND AND REALLY WOULD BE SUSPICIOUS.

    You are just too lazy to research this yourself. I have read and understood the timeline, but I imagine it is simply too much for your brain to handle. I cannot dumb it down enough, or am not willing to dumb it down enough. Maybe ask your mommy to help you figure it out.

    If Trayvon continued down a road then Zimmerman would have been able to follow him by truck. You need to have common sense when watching that video or listening to any court version of events.

    @ Wegs,

    Tiassa recently discussed case was about someone who tried to use the SYG defense and failed because she shot at kids, and had gone elsewhere to get the gun and returned. If she feared for her life as is required, why did she return after getting gun or go to the victims home and again attack him in front of his kids as soon as she made bail. Judge denied SYG defense.
     
  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Let simplify this here: is there any moment in the time span between Zimmerman leaving his car and him fighting with and killing Martin in which one or both individuals can't be tracked? If in fact most of that time is untrackable for one or both of them (certainly Martin) then you can't propose that there is any evidence Martin backtracked and intentionally attack Zimmerman.

    Does this scenario include Martin turning around and attack zimmerman?

    Many possibilities that are more likely then "I'm going to fuck that cracker up!"
    A) He slowed down, while talking with girlfriend perhaps or even stopped for some time, perhaps trying to determine if he was still being chased, he could have even turned back some distance to see if he was in fact being chased or was seeing things.
    B) He was not taking a direct route, possibly because he thought he was being chased.
    C) He got lost possibly because he ran at first when he thought correctly that he was being chased.

    Note my argument is that Martin for most of the time was untrackable, so all your 'maps' are BS, I also don't need to suggest an alternate path that he took because my argument is that he was untrackable based on existing evidence: so no alternate pathway or any pathway can be proven.

    So? Do we murder people for walking around randomly?

    Oh the insults, they hurt, ouch, oh I think you broke my virtual I-give-a-shit bone!

    Why should Martin have continued down that road? If you think someone is chasing you why the fuck would you keep out in the open where he could run you down with his truck?
     
  13. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    3,367
    @ Tiassa;

    Regarding the Alexander story;

    It makes sense why the SYG law didn't work in her defense after reading all of the details of the case. (And knowing more about how that tied in with the "stringent" particulars of SYG) But I'll say this. If you* have been in an abusive relationship, you will understand the bizarre dynamic between Alexander and her lover. If you have never been in an abusive relationship, you won't understand it. That said, here we have a case where an abusive man beats this woman and she ends up in jail ...for firing a warning shot? What a joke.

    And Zimmerman kills a teenager and he walks.

    Basically, SYG is a good defense if you're a white man.

    * "you" meant in a general sense

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    **side note: It's still rather sadly astonishing how pathetic the court system still views and handles cases involving women who have battered woman "syndrome." :/
     
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    35,134
    Apologia

    I do, in fact, owe you an apology for the shot on your parenting skills. However, she did not shoot at the kids. And, well, I won't await any of the dozens of apologies you owe other people.

    But, yes, sorry about the parenting shot. And, yes, you're right—as long as it's just teaching them the loathsome ideas you express here, you're doing fine.
     
  15. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    2,088
    @ wegs,

    You may have been mislead by false media about her shooting a warning shot into the ceiling. The shot was really in the wall behind the victims. How do you know it is a warning shot? If I try to shoot you in the head and you duck at the last second and the bullet lodges in the wall behind you the room, it would look the same as if I fired a warning shot. This woman (despite the dynamic) did not fear for her life.

    In order to use the Stand Your Ground defense the person using the defense must feel their life is in danger. Did she feel this man was going to kill her in front of his kids? Did he restrain her from leaving when she left the house to get her gun? It appears not. If she was truly in danger and ran outside to the Garage and got the gun while he was ten feet behind her tripping over stuff she was tipping in his path and then grabbed the gun and shot him just as his fist was hurling towards her, then that would be an instance she feared for her life. If she was scared she could have stayed in the garage with the gun and called the police. Going back into the house is not a fight or flight response which was deemed necessary by the judge.

    Now when she was arrested for attempted murder (it was aimed at him according to the three witnesses) despite your warning shot fantasies, she was forced to abide by certain conditions and obey a court ordered peace bond. She made bail.

    Now when she made bail she went straight to the man (totally disrespecting the court orders and bail conditions) and attacked him.

    Her bail was then revoked because obviously she was too psychotic and too dis respective of laws, and the court orders. From the courts point of view her first chance of freedom will send her straight back to the same man armed to the teeth. How would you protect a family if a person shows extreme violence and utter disrespect for the law, and peace bonds.

    You seem to want to think that she is sane enough to be let go, but if she kills the man or his kids could you live with that guilt?

    She did try the Stand Your Ground defense but she is obviously not afraid of him, and obviously not in fear of her life. She had no fear beating him when she got out on bail.

    Let's just let all the psychos out of jail.

    Law is mostly common sense. Put yourself in the judges shoes.
    a) Was she in fear of her life as is necessary to use the SYG defense?
    b) Would you feel safe letting this woman go knowing that when she was released last time she went directly to the mans home and AGAIN assaulted him and beat him in front of AGAIN his children.

    Oh sorry. I did not mean to bring real law into a case that you have already decided is 100% racist. This case is obviously settled in a way that ensures the safety of the victims, and she certainly was never in fear of her life. The father could have wrestled the gun away from her partially and aimed it while they were struggling and shot her and claimed the SYG defense because his children could testify she fired a shot at him, and he WAS IN FEAR OF HIS LIFE. If he had fully wrestled the gun off her then he would no longer be in fear, as he would have the firepower.

    @ Electric Fetus,

    Trayvons Girlfriend said he was by his dads house
    or

    (Comments from court transcripts)

    So according to Jeantel (his GF) Trayvon was by his dads house. Other witnesses confirmed this. What is the mystery is how Trayvon got to be back at the intersection he vanished from a few minutes earlier. Was he kidnapped at gunpoint from his parents house? Did he run low on skittles and was walking back to the store? Was he going to bash GZ? Nobody can explain it without coming to the conclusion Trayvon turned on GZ. This is what a Jury believed and it does cast reasonable doubt.
     
  16. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    I reread the details about the case, here is a link for anyone interested.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/19/marissa-alexander-gets-20_n_1530035.html

    I will agree with you kwhilborn, she acted recklessly. But, where she honestly went wrong? She should have fled the house and not returned into it, IF he was threatening her life. Keep in mind something. Her estranged partner had a history of abusing Alexander. She had a RO against him. That’s not an easy thing to obtain, against someone. Abusive relationships are very hard to understand if you’ve never been in one. It is very easy to cast judgment on Alexander, but it’s not a typical situation, these two.

    That said. She should have fled when she knew he was there, since she had a RO against him. That alone implies that she either a) really wasn’t all that afraid of him, if she was willing to stay and ‘argue’ with him or b) she ''snapped'' after having dealt with abuse for so long at the hands of the guy…so, that part is what stands out more to me than the judge rejecting the SYG defense.

    But, again…abusive relationships are very volatile and these two just had a baby a few weeks prior to this incident.

    But, I do believe that if Alexander was white…SYG would have swooped down to save the day. This is my opinion. I would love to see some real cases whereby the SYG law was used as the defense for an African-American person shooting a white person, and the African-American person was acquitted through such a defense. My guess…you won’t find too many.

    And race DEFINITELY plays a huge factor when it comes to longer prison sentences for African-Americans. (that’s not my opinion)

    But, I will agree with you—she acted recklessly. But, 20 years?
     
  17. Capracus Registered Senior Member

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    667
    While fist fights involve physical contact, they don’t always begin with it. In a boxing match for example, missed punches are not landed and feints aren't intended to land. Many punches aren't landed with enough force to leave evidence of their application. That there is evidence of one punch allegedly landed by Martin doesn’t mean it was the first one thrown.

    You don’t understand the concept of contact and non contact Interaction? How about landed punch vs. feint.

    Zimmerman the rag doll?
    All fights begin for a reason or provocation, including this one. There are initiating factors that the jury is required to derive from reasonable inference in order to assign blame.

    Zimmerman claims to be the victim of an extensive life threatening attack, when the evidence only supports the infliction of relatively inconsequential injuries caused by a single punch to his nose. No reasonable evidence of a single head slam to the pavement, let alone the dozens reported by Zimmerman. This embellishment by Zimmerman is meat of his self defense argument, without it he has no reasonable cause to employ deadly force.

    As I mentioned above, the injuries received by Zimmerman are not considered serious or life threatening. The sports example is relevant to show that while such injuries may be a painful annoyance, they don’t significantly compromise health or performance.

    Again, the evidence suggests that all of Zimmerman’s injuries are consistent with the application of a single punch to the nose. There is no reasonable evidence of the sustained attack claimed by Zimmerman.

    I’ve had my nose broken playing basketball, it really wasn’t that painful at the time of the injury, but became more so hours later, and it didn’t stop me from continuing the contest.

    Zimmerman admits to wrestling for control of the gun, so take away the single punch by Martin and the remainder of the action consists of a struggle for the gun. How long does it take to throw a single punch?

    Like I stated before, it was much more likely that Zimmerman feared the harm associated with losing his weapon than that stemming from a single punch to the nose.

    So you’re saying that it would be wise for Zimmerman to lie if he could avoid discovery of those lies. Do Zimmerman’s misrepresentations of the cause and severity of his injuries amount to Lies?

    Stop thinking so narrowly. Any collision of sufficient force between a nose and a solid object can cause a nasal fracture. So if Zimmerman had claimed a collision or fall into a his truck body, a tree, fence railing, or ground objects they all would've been reasonably consistent with the incidental environment.

    When quantifying certainty as it relates to a jury verdict you’re averaging the subjective application of certainty by individual jurors. Juror A holds high certainty for conviction, while juror B holds high certainty for acquittal, in this case they cancel, but since conviction requires unanimity the outcome still favors the defendant. Stack the jury with juror A types and conviction is certain.

    The prosecution’s task is to present reasonable evidence to support the associated charge and to discredit the defendant’s assertion of innocence. Ideally no need for trickery, but it’s much more likely to be used by the defense due to the fact that prosecutions are contingent on the likelihood of the evidence favoring a conviction.
     
  18. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    This is not a second by second account. There are many other likely possibles other then he turned back to attack zimmerman. Where was he approximately to his [father's girlfriends/fiances] house (that he was staying at) the instant he said what Jeantel says he said? She could have misheard, he could have meant something else, he could have passed his house and went up lost or being chased from behind, zimmerman could have taken very different path down and around that would have forced martin to run past his home, etc, etc. And why take that thing out of Jeantel testimony and ignore all the rest when she claims to have heard him directly voice "Why are you following me for?" not jump out of nowhere and attack as zimmerman claims, as well as Jeantel claiming to hear next Zimmerman say "What are you doing around here?" not screaming that he is being attack, and even hears Martin saying "get off, get off"?
     
  19. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    2,088
    @ Electric Fetus,
    You have a short memory. You just asked how they accounted for Trayvons time in the missing seconds.

    You said,
    I showed the relevant parts of Jeantels testimony that showed he told her he was home or by his house. There are MANY MANY versions of that testimony as she has been repeatedly interviewed on television.


    The parts of Jeantels testimony I posted are regarding your theories
    I posted several lines applicable to that. I was answering part of your question regarding timeline. Several witnesses also claim to have seen Trayvon at home, but that is their say so and not official via court. (his brother, etc.)


    The stuff she heard regarding fighting was from a mouthpiece lying in the grass, and even Trayvons own father gave different testimony about whos voice was on the 911 tape. Since it was GZ who was beaten it seems more likely he was the person yelling "get Off", or "Help".

    Your argument that he was untrackable is ridiculous, because he was telling Jeantel his every move. He said when he was at mailbox, when and where he headed, etc. Her story matched the GZ account of events. The police phone calls also matched the events described.

    Like he was walking towards GZ when he left mail (as described in phone) and then going onto trail as described by Jeantel, Zimmerman, and need to leave car to follow. It is not rocket science. It is comprehending how a puzzle fits together. Your theories make no sense, and would make Jeantel a liar.
     
  20. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    So let me get this straight, that one thing she says accounts for all the missing seconds? ..how?

    yet your going to take one thing she said as fact and disregard the rest?

    So at this point your using 'evidence' not even admitted in the court?

    That purely a matter of your opinion, for all we know Zimmerman attack Martin and Martin was defending him self.
     
  21. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    3,367
    Can someone 'splain something to me?

    (As a refresher for myself...) I've read recently that the SYG law is designed to literally be able to 'stand your ground' should your life be threatened, even to the point of killing the other person whom you perceive as the threat to your life. With self defense however, the idea is to escape. You are ''required to retreat'', I've read. I ask because GZ's defense team used self defense as the defense in his trial, and not SYG. Can someone explain this to me? Thanks.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...e_why_it_was_too_easy_for_him_to_get_off.html
     
  22. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/08/20/fox-news-still-denying-role-of-stand-your-groun/195495

    "The publicly available Zimmerman trial jury instructions -- which were entirely based on Florida's Stand Your Ground self-defense law -- stated: "If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in anyplace where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

    The jury instructions are nearly identical in wording to the text of Florida's Stand Your Ground law. According to Dan Gelber, a former Florida state senator and former prosecutor who opposes the law, Stand Your Ground "fundamentally changed the analysis used by juries to assign blame in these cases." The law was also important to the case because it was cited by authorities as a reason for why Zimmerman was not initially arrested after shooting Martin."
     
  23. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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