Everyday sexism

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by James R, Dec 7, 2020.

  1. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Unlike in America wegs, tipping in Australia is generally not encouraged and is a lot rarer.
    And no, their conduct was a reflection of us 9 blokes bringing some joviality and happiness into their probable dreary job.
    As I said, and as I told James many days/months? ago, I even wrote to the Leagues club management commending the two girls on making our reunion one of the best we have had.
    The club secretary replied and said he was appreciative of getting some notification of the service the club tries to provide, rather then the general complaint letters and E-Mails.
    I have also seen the girls since and they both thanked me for the commendation and agreed it was a fun day/night.
    Were they just pretending because they thought they may lose their jobs?
    Were they disgusted or offended by our behaviour?
    Were we disgusted and offended by their behaviour?
    Were they obliged to react in kind because club management required them to do so?

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    The only answer wegs is no to all those distant possibilities...a resounding no.
    Anyway nice conversing with you, but under threat/s of whatever James has in mind, I must now vacate this thread, and the other set up thread on racism. You heard that one? I'm also a racist!

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  3. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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  5. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Were they "obliged" as in ordered to do so? Almost certainly not.
    Did they feel obliged to provide good service to anyone no matter how disrespectful or overly familiar? Most likely yes. Note that the industry they work in is called "the service industry." There is a clue in that term.
    Ask any waitress (if you have any such friends) if customers sometimes come on too strong, or hit on them, or are overly familiar - and if they just grin and bear it in order to be able to do a good job. The answer may surprise you.
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Would a large tip be an sexist offense? Overly generous...omg...is he hitting on me?
     
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Not if there are no strings attached.

    If you leave a big tip and leave - no.
    If you leave a big tip and then hang around to see if you can get some interest - maybe.
    If you leave a big tip with your phone number, and get angry if she doesn't call you - definitely.
     
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  9. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Hmmm... mayb it woud depend on the circumstances.!!!
     
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  10. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    I don't know what you're talking about.

    Been there, done that. Was I right, or not?

    You just don't get it.

    Your argument that in the "real world" your harassing behaviour and sexist jokes are accepted by many doesn't help you. Obviously you live in a particular "real world" setting in which many of your associates condone or turn a blind eye to your behaviours, and in which such behaviours occur often enough that many of your victims to grin and bear it rather than telling you it is offensive. Nothing in that excuses your behaviour.

    I have never claimed to be morally perfect, or to have the "be all and end all" word on morality, or anything else for that matter. Your attempt to straw man and make this about me is just more deflection from you. What you ought to do is to promise to try to do better in future, now that you've been educated about appropriate behaviour. That's a minimum. Another action you could take, if you were sincere about reforming, would be to apologise to the people who you have previously victimised. Obviously, though, you're completely unrepetent.

    Where?

    I think you're looking for a convenient excuse to ignore wegs and Bells, again. Why aren't you replying to them?

    Wake up, paddo. This is reality. It's the 21st century, not the 1950s.

    This is not about me or "another" (who? Bells? Why won't you say her name?).

    We're trying to help you. We're trying to help the people who have to deal with you on a daily basis.

    Of course. Nothing gets through to you. You're stubborn. You have a huge ego. You're proud to be immoral. You keep repeating that you'll never change, despite putting up a weak pretense that if anybody ever told you your behaviour was inappropriate you would change. Nobody ever expected you would change. It is very clear you're determined to stay set in your ways. You're so focused on protecting yourself that you can't even acknowledge there's a problem, even when it doesn't concern you directly.

    The women say otherwise. But you know better, don't you? You're entitled.

    It's never appropriate, but you won't stop, so don't pretend.

    This discussion is one that you chose to have and to prolong. This is entirely on you. Don't pretend it isn't.

    You just don't get it. There's no plan. Nobody is out to get you. We only want you to recognise your sexist ways and to try to be better. Your ego won't let you. For you, it has to be a conspiracy, a battle, an unwarranted attack on your good character.

    This doesn't even have to be about you, but that's all you can think about.
     
  11. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Did they say that? Or are you assuming it?

    Why do you think that's relevant?

    Why do you think that's relevant?

    Were they working at the time, serving you as a customer, once again?

    Who knows? Did you ask them?

    Who knows? Did you ask them?

    Apparently not, judging by the letters of appreciation you say you sent to the club. Were you lying?

    Yes. Employees are obliged to treat customers in particular ways, being polite etc. If they don't, they can lose their jobs. Don't pretend you're unaware of this. If you didn't realise earlier, Bells explained it to you, so you can't pretend ignorance any more.

    What makes you think the "everyday racism" thread is about you? Do you want to make it about you?
     
  12. Bells Staff Member

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    This is true.

    Your sexual harassment of women is a pervasive issue.

    Your issue is that you do not like to be challenged. You like to be able to do whatever you want without question. You harass and bully other people on this site and you expect to do that without challenge. When your questionable behaviour is questioned and challenged, you get angry.

    Your behaviour, on this site and how you describe or explain when you are out and about, is not acceptable behaviour.

    By any measure.

    You mean you are going to continue to harass others?

    And what hollow victory? You are simply just choosing to ignore the reality that your behaviour is not acceptable and it has been pointed out by everyone, including the "lady" you were so hoping would agree with you. Hence your bad attempts at flirting with her before.. It's not acceptable.

    Here's the thing paddoboy.. The way you behave, its our existence. Wegs and I can see you coming from a mile off, because we experience it constantly. It's not normal, it is not acceptable and it is not wanted. But you don't care about that, do you?

    Look at your current behaviour. You are asked to stop doing it, so you then start telling people that you have been threatened. You weren't. We ask that you stop with the sexist comments and sexual harassment.. And you object to that so much, that you choose to lie:

    Poor you. Told you had to stop with the inappropriate sexist behaviour and harassment because it is not acceptable.

    When the women tell you to stop and tell you it is not appropriate, you ignore us and continue with the same behaviour. Interesting that you stop now though, huh?

    There is nothing gracious about your behaviour. There is nothing friendly about it.

    There is an ongoing pattern of wilful disregard for the feelings of others, there is a known and very well established pattern and history of sexism and sexual harassment from you. And you refuse to adhere to requests to stop and refuse to admit that perhaps others may be right and that perhaps, just perhaps, you should treat women with respect and as professionals when you address them in their workspaces.

    That's not decorum.

    All you have done is prove our point.
     
  13. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Let's rewind for a moment and consider how this thread started and how it could have gone in a parallel universe.

    paddoboy decided to post what he considered a throwaway "joke" at the expense of women. In the context of a discussion about aliens, he said "Must be a female Alien...can't make up her bloody mind!", complete with an emoticon with a tongue sticking out.

    Clearly, this is a sexist comment, as well as a big FU to women in general (tongue stick out emoticon).

    I pointed out that this was sexist, and explained why.

    In a hypothetical parallel universe, paddoboy might have taken this on board, agreed that it was a poor "joke" in bad taste and actually offensive to women. He might have said "I'll think twice before posting that kind of thing again." He might have said "I didn't mean to offend and I apologise to everybody who was offended by my sexist remark." It could have ended there.

    Instead, paddoboy decided to double down, not only trying to defend the "joke" as a bit of harmless fun, but then to bring in a whole lot of other sexist behaviours which he also tried to defend as his customary "banter". And here we are 330 posts later, with paddoboy angry and upset, yet stubbornly unrepentent.

    The only argument that paddoboy has put up as to why these kinds of "jokes" or his inappropriate behaviours towards customer service people should be acceptable is that these are commonly seen in the circles in which he likes to operate. Everybody else he knows acts like this, apparently, so it must be fine for him to act like this as well. Of course, that's probably a lie. Probably he knows lots of people who don't act like he does, which ought to at least prompt the question as to why they don't.

    This thread is not really about paddoboy. He's just a typical example of a man who feels entitled to harass women. His habitual harassment could possibly be viewed as being towards the low end of the scale of these things. Maybe he didn't even realise it was a problem before. But now he knows.

    The question any reader of this thread should ask is this:

    Is it desirable to live in a society in which behaviours like paddoboy's are accepted as commonplace, and which are regarded as things that women just need to suck up because "that's how men are"?
    Imagine that some super-being is going to roll some dice that will determine whether you become an old white man in paddoboy's world or a young woman who has a bar job and who is obliged to deal with the likes of paddoboy and his mates. You get to say what the rules of this world will be before you are put in it, but you can't affect who you will be in this world. Would you agree to the "rule" that casual sexism (e.g. sexist misogynistic jokes) and casual harassment (e.g. sleazy behaviour from male customers) will be the norm in this world you're about to step into, or would you rather have a world in which those things won't occur (or will be sanctioned)? If, along with paddoboy, you choose the world in which sexism is the norm, how do you think you'll go if the dice dictate that you're the woman in paddo's bar?

    The thing to realise, now, is that in reality we're not stuck in paddoboy's world. We can change the rules of our world, although we cannot change our own roles in the world. We can, as a society, decide that casual sexism is unacceptable. We can decide to sanction sexist men. Or we can decide that paddoboy's world is just fine and dandy and let the sexism continue to run rampant.

    Which world do you want?
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Actually, I didn't even put it in those terms. I have said all along that he ought to stop, because it would be the right thing to do. I have not at any time said "stop it, or else".

    paddoboy wants to invent an excuse for himself: that the evil moderator is threatening to ban him from the forum or give him some warning points, therefore he has no choice but to leave the discussion for his own protection, while conceding nothing and allowing only a "hollow victory" to the evil moderator.

    The fact of the matter is that the moderator is not feeling particularly evil at the moment and in any case has at no time threatened paddoboy with a warning or a ban for his sexist ways. The evil moderator has only ever tried to appeal to paddoboy's good character and moral sense, but it turns out he doesn't have one, or else he chooses to ignore it in order to protect his huge ego.

    The enemy here isn't paddoboy, either, though that's what he thinks. The evil moderator doesn't have it in for him. The evil moderator would simply prefer to see less casual sexism in the world. The evil moderator would like men to do better. The enemy is the behaviours and the unthinking acceptance of the behaviours.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
  15. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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  16. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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  17. Bells Staff Member

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    Which is what we have been saying each time this discussion has come up.

    Some do not mind it. Some do.

    So it's best to simply not use it.

    And one should definitely not use it when addressing someone, a stranger or even someone one knows, in their place of work. Particularly when one is in a position of some authority - say customer over a junior sales clerk, as a prime example.
     
  18. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    On the first statement....Grow up James.
    On the sexism thread, you know you have held no one to any account whatsoever. I have explained all with valid examples that you personally know SFA about.
    So why do you raise it again?...Go back to my first comment in this post.
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I think women are the most wonderful creatures in nature. I adore women and if I were a religious person I'd have a woman as my object of worship, like Venus or Aphrodite...... I'm just a hopeless romantic......

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    Does flattery actually work?
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
  20. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    The post quoted here was made by paddoboy in a different thread, because he's too scared to post in this one any more. Just saying.
     
  21. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Exactly. It is ironic that quite a few weren’t keen on the word “love” as a pet name for strangers. I found it especially interesting, one member complaining about her husband using it to address women but he didn’t address men with any labels. Hmm.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
  22. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Nothing wrong with flattery, if it’s genuine and directed in appropriate ways at appropriate times.

    Slightly off topic, but Trump has often been quoted as saying “I love women,” when confronted with accusations of misconduct and maltreatment from various women. He said something similar when dealing with his building of “the wall” - “I love Mexicans. Many of them work for me.”

    Not very flattering. Blanket statements of flattery don’t come across as genuine to me.
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Auchhhhhhhhhh..........

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    One would never anger a goddess....!
     

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