Electric cars vs fossil fuel cars

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Luchito, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Have not been following the climate debate much
    A little more the electric car stuff
    So when we live in a world free for fossil fuels I penned this to the local NT News newspaper to find out

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    NT News my letter 23 March 2022

    Anyone any idea please?

    Or is it no more flying or going back to moon?

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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    The Mustang Mach-E will kick its butt. But look on the good side - you can get a recording of a loud engine and play it on your car's stereo. Then you get the cool noise AND the higher performance.
    All gas cars hesitate for a split second, for a variety of reasons.
     
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  5. river

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    Not surprised . Electric Motors have constant torque from the start. Nothing like the sound of a powerful V8 , though . Electric motors will take over , eventually , but I will always like the sound that my Mustang GT puts out .
     
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  7. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    In one of the Jason Bourne movies, there's a car chase with a Mini Cooper. In reality, it has an engine not much bigger than a sewing machine but in the movie it roars and screeches around corners, etc. In the DVD commentary, they mention that the audio is entirely made up, cobbled together from Ferraris or whatever.

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  8. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    If you are in a Jumbo Jet powered by AA batteries will the airline play a Jumbo Jet flying on fossil fuel noise to reassure passengers?

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  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    They will sound the same.
     
  10. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Don't think a electric turbine engine will sound same

    Electric cars not same noise

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  11. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    They will sound VERY similar. 90% of the thrust of a jet engine comes from the fan; the turbine merely drives it.

    Most of the noise you hear in flight is wind noise from airflow around the fuselage. The next largest source of noise is the "turbine-y" noise caused by the fan spinning at very high speeds. Electric jet engines will have the same fan spinning at a similar speed and so will sound similar.

    So my prediction - you will hear the difference when the engine first starts turning, and there is no fan or airflow noise. Once you get in the air, it will sound pretty much like any other jet airliner.

    (Of course, propeller planes of either type are completely different animals.)

    Agreed there. Exhaust noise is the primary component of gas engine "noise" (at least at speeds below 40mph or so) and that is completely missing with an EV. However, the biggest difference in experience between gas cars and EV's is not the noise, but the lack of vibration and periodic jerks as the transmission shifts gears (and momentarily interrupts power.)
     
  12. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    OK guess this is a wait to find out situation

    Related - any idea how many Double AA batteries will a Jumbo Jet with 300+ passages require to fly from Australia to United Kingdom?

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  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Well, no one is ever going to try that, since then you'd have to throw out the airplane after the flight.

    However, using good 18650's (li-ion batteries about the size of an AA battery) you can figure it out.

    787-8 fuel economy: 104 passenger-miles per gallon; 1 gallon of jet fuel = 12 kilowatt-hours thermal energy - so 8.6 passenger-miles per kilowatt-hour. One 18650 is 13 watt-hours. So .12 passenger-miles per battery.

    To get one passenger to Australia would therefore take 79,000 AA-cell like batteries. For 300 people, that's ~23 million of them.
     
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  14. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Not done the calculations, just coming into Monday morning here

    Did do a little bit more looking into the aspects of doing it

    Have not watched the video

    https://sustainable-nano.com/2016/04/29/aa-batteries-mercedes/

    Seems Saturday Night Live did a scaled way down version with an imaginary Mercedes

    I was going to scale their results up to a Jumbo Jet

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    Going back to the noise from a turbo get, is not a portion of the noise from the burning of the fuel?

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    Ummmm - 300 people, that's 23 million - get ready to buy shares in Everyready

    Further for the benefit of those who rale against mining for petrol, will they voice same disapproval when mining increases to obtain minerals used in the manufacture of rechargeable batteries along with non-battery material?

    Along with increased use of plastics to keep weight down and further mining for rare earths used energy storage systems?

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  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Well, burning is quiet. It's the whine of all those turbine blades spinning around that makes the noise. But again, in a turbofan engine, that fan is huge and is going to make most of the noise - whether it's driven by an electric motor or a gas turbine/
    People will complain about anything. Here in the US we developed a vaccine for a deadly pandemic in a record breaking 11 months - and people complained about it.
    Fortunately by not burning all that oil we will have all the plastics we need!
     
  16. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    The mRNA system for vaccine has been around since the 60's

    What brought mRNA into use in record time was a shortened approval process

    Old approval process was to select a volunteer test group, run the test, analyse results and move onto another group

    Now they test groups concurrently, not in sequence hence testing period much shorter

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  17. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    The combustion is actually surprisingly loud.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1540748914004003

    I remember at university we had a small jet in the lab, which at full throttle would only produce in the region of 50 N of thrust (which was the most surprising thing of all, as you'd think it would be so much more!) - but, boy, was it loud!

    To give you an idea, it was a bit like this (but this is so much more modern than the set-up my uni had).
    (noise level is toward the end - although it doesn't give any db reading).
     
  18. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    In engines like that - agreed.

    I was once riding on a C-123BK, which is a combination of radial engines and no-bypass turbojet engines. When they started the radial engines it was incredibly loud. When they started the jet engines it became impossible to hear anything anyone said. We later figured out that it was around 130dB inside the aircraft. This led to many problems later.

    However, again, in a modern jet engine the actual turbojet is fairly small, and is located well inside the engine. 90% of the thrust comes from the fan, which the turbojet drives. Most of the noise that you hear from an engine like the one in the video is the very high speed air hitting the zero speed air outside and causing turbulence that's perceived as noise. In a turbofan engine, that high speed air has a "sleeve" of medium speed air around it from the fan, which reduces that turbulence tremendously. That's why the (huge) engines of an A-380 at takeoff cause a fraction of the noise of the relatively small engines of an F-18 at takeoff.
     
  19. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed, but he did ask about a "turbo get" [sic], not a turbofan.

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  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Good point! I don't know of any passenger aircraft that use turbojets, though. (Even that C-123 has been long since retired.)
     
  21. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    The last I recall would have been the likes of Concorde, but there may well have been others around the world that used them after that.
     

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