Does Chaos Theory prove a Mathematically Ordered Universe

Michael 345 said:
There is nothing lower than ENERGY. But as been frequently mentioned, ENERGY is a MEASUREMENT of a property of mass and systems composed of mass
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Sure, I agree as far as that goes, but that's not fundamental, IMO.
Energy is a conserved quantity; the law of conservation of energy states that energy can be converted in form, but not created or destroyed. The SI unit of energy is the joule, which is the energy transferred to an object by the work of moving it a distance of 1 metre against a force of 1 newton.
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What I see here is a mathematical description of the interaction of relational values in accordance with mathematical guiding equations. Which avoids the conflict of irreducible complexity. Simple.
 
Write4U said:
And of these three which is the universal language and not a local phenomenon?
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That's easy...English... it's everywhere..more so than math..I mean you go into the pub everyone is speaking English or a corrupted local version but no one is ever speaking math. Go over seas..English someplace..math nope.
Alex
 
paddoboy said:
I was only ever aware of the possible three alternatives for the end of the universe scenario...Big Freeze, Big Crunch and the Big Rip....there are a couple more it seems.....Big Bounce and the Big Slurp.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe#Big_Bounce
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I go for Big Rip which in essence is a version of Heat Death as I understand

Perhaps a stage further. Heat Death appears to leave some particles intact with their kinetic energy (movement - speed of travel) intact

Big Rip goes the extra step and atoms (particles?) are disintegrated

So what happens when there are no particles (stuff) to have properties???

:)
 
Write4U said:
What I see here is a mathematical description of the interaction of relational values in accordance with mathematical guiding equations. Which avoids the conflict of irreducible complexity. Simple.
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And what happens when (if) the Universe reaches the Big Rip stage and there is nothing to measure? No energy difference = no interaction possible = no measurements = no math

Complicated

:)
 
paddoboy said:
Funny, I liked that to...it came about after the acceleration in the expansion rate was discovered
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Well that's a relief you like like the Big Rip. I will sleep better tonight :)>_<:D

paddoboy said:
Quantum foam? 0 degrees K? ;)
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If I understood what quantum foam consists of I probably would agree

As I understand quantum foam is composed of fields of energy

Which I would be happy with if Huey Dewey and Louie stopped asking me WHAT CONTAINS THE FIELDS?

With no container to contain (doh) fields surely they would seep out to infinity trying (?) to fill a unfillable nothingness
  • And who is going to come alongt to
  • at least gather up a
  • portion of these fields
  • squeeze them together
  • make them hot again
  • ready to make another Big Bang?
Coffee moment

:)
 
Michael 345 said:
And what happens when (if) the Universe reaches the Big Rip stage and there is nothing to measure? No energy difference = no interaction possible = no measurements = no math

Complicated

:)
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No values, no mathematical processes, no universe, simple.
 
Write4U said:
No values, no mathematical processes, no universe, simple.
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Well we agree on that :)

:)

NEXT

What happened to all the ENERGY which us Minions (so trusting we are) have been told cannot be created, and important to this situation, cannot be destroyed?

:)
 
Michael 345 said:
Well we agree on that :)

NEXT

What happened to all the ENERGY which us Minions (so trusting we are) have been told cannot be created, and important to this situation, cannot be destroyed?

:)
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It could dissipate? This could explain why there can be no pure vacuum. There is always something, but may be so dilute it has no longer any dynamical impact. But in a dynamic permittive chaotic condition patterns like toroidal patterns may spontaneously form as per Chaos Theory.

But is there a compelling reason why the Universe should need to persist as the Universe when it has evaporated. It may transform as it did when it was a "compressed singularity" and actually would confirm the proposition that the universe is expanding constantly until there is no longer spacetime, but just a permittive condition as was before the BB.

However, if we want to model an eternal recycling of Universal energy into matter and back into energy we might consider a toroidal shaped universe.
How about this?
torus-travel.png

Figure 3. An ant travels on a doughnut. From our perspective (left), the ant returns to where it started because the doughnut wraps around on itself. But from the ant’s perspective (right) it seems to walk in a straight path and eventually return to where it started.
What if our universe was like the doughnut, but in three dimensions? So if you start going in a direction, say towards Andromeda, and keep going for as long as possible, billions of light years, you would eventually get back to where you started (ignoring of course that the universe is expanding and thus the distance you would have to travel would increase faster than you could travel it).....more
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http://www.thephysicsmill.com/2015/10/31/the-cmb-axis-of-evil-and-the-nature-of-randomness/

Afterthought; In a torus shaped Universe all this resolves into a continuous cycle of:
1) a singularity at the center of the torus,
2) the energy jet of unimaginable energetic power,
3) expansion until passing the horizon,
4) contraction toward the torus' center BH,
5) formation of a singularity at the center of the torus
6) energy jet starting the process all over again in a continuous cycle of expansion, contractions, and regeneration, etc, etc.

torus_opt.gif

http://www.thephysicsmill.com/2015/10/31/the-cmb-axis-of-evil-and-the-nature-of-randomness/

Has anybody ever written anything about what happens to that pure stream of unimaginable energy spouting continuously from the center of the universe? Does it spread out along the surface of the toroid spacetime and feed the next generation of universe or does it jet into a timeless void and just disappears, or is energy indestructible and continues to feed a recycling toroidal universe?

This model would account for a continual recycling of an expanding and contracting spacetime, yet without need for an original BB, no? Moreover this is a self-contained cycle and allows for many such structures in the universe

A baker's dozen doughnut shaped toroidal spacetime universes in a greater (infinite) permittive condition?
 
Michael 345 said:
Problem

ENERGY is a PROPERTY of stuff. It has no physicality hence there is nothing to dissipate

:)
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Sorry, didn't make that clear. I don't mean to say "dissipate" as in losing energy, that's a no no. I meant to say dissipate into an ever expanding space until the inherent energy has no longer any relational effect on empty space.

ENERGY is a PROPERTY of stuff
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But are you saying that stuff came before energy? What stuff created the energy of the BB? Or was it energy that acted energetically before it was stuff?

I always understood that energy was a potential of a dynamic system? Potential, not energy is a property of stuff.

Potential energy, physics
WRITTEN BY; The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica
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Examine how water held back by Egypt's Aswan High Dam turns turbines to generate electricityLearn about how potential energy and kinetic energy are harnessed to generate electricity through facilities such as the Aswan High Dam.Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.See all videos for this article
Potential energy, stored energy that depends upon the relative position of various parts of a system. A spring has more potential energy when it is compressed or stretched. A steel ball has more potential energy raised above the ground than it has after falling to Earth. In the raised position it is capable of doing more work. Potential energy is a property of a system and not of an individual body or particle; the system composed of Earth and the raised ball, for example, has more potential energy as the two are farther separated.
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Potential energy arises in systems with parts that exert forces on each other of a magnitude dependent on the configuration, or relative position, of the parts. In the case of the Earth-ball system, the force of gravity between the two depends only on the distance separating them. The work done in separating them farther, or in raising the ball, transfers additional energy to the system, where it is stored as gravitational potential energy.
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potential and kinetic energyPotential energy is stored energy, whereas kinetic energy is the energy of moving things.
In bound systems, such as atoms, in which electrons are held by the electric force of attraction to nuclei, the zero reference for potential energy is a distance from the nucleus so great that the electric force is not detectable. In this case, bound electrons have negative potential energy, and those very far away have zero potential energy.
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https://www.britannica.com/science/potential-energy

Energy is not stuff. But energy can be compressed (opposite of dissipated) and if compressed into a singularity and subsequently released, IMO that is what was causal to the original BB inflationary epoch.
That chronology seems the most logical to me....:?
 
While I am searching, this may be of interest:

Where does energy come from? Where does energy go?
Energy can be found in many things and takes many forms. There is potential energy in objects at rest that will make them move if resistance is removed. There is kinetic energy in objects that are moving. The molecules making up all matter contains a huge amount of energy, as Einstein's E = mc^2 pointed out to us.
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Question: Is it the subatomic movement inside molecules that generate their energy?

transfer-of-energy.gif

So the short answer is that the energy we encounter and use everyday has always been with us since the beginning of the universe and always will be with us. It just changes form all around us. That is called the law of conservation of energy.

http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/vss/docs/thermal/3-where-does-energy-come-from-and-go.html#

Continuity equation
A continuity equation in physics is an equation that describes the transport of some quantity.
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It is particularly simple and powerful when applied to a conserved quantity, but it can be generalized to apply to any extensive quantity. Since mass, energy, momentum, electric charge and other natural quantities are conserved under their respective appropriate conditions, a variety of physical phenomena may be described using continuity equations.
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250px-SurfacesWithAndWithoutBoundary.svg.png
In the integral form of the continuity equation, S is any closed surface that fully encloses a volume V, like any of the surfaces on the left. S can not be a surface with boundaries, like those on the right. (Surfaces are blue, boundaries are red.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuity_equation
 
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Write4U said:
But are you saying that stuff came before energy?
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It comes down to the inescapable - you need stuff to store energy, and you need Kinect energy to push into stuff to change it into potential energy

If you don't have stuff you can't store energy

If all the ATOMS of stuff dissipate what is going to store the energy

The exercise of winding back the Universe until you have a situation of a extremely hot plasma like stuff is fine and of course the question is asked what caused hot state to transfer into The Big Bang?

The compressed hot state of the Universe has to be stuff??? as is cannot be non tangible ENERGY

It 04:18 pm and when I got up about 1 hour ago for a short excursion I didn't intend to check my email. But I did and this rambling is the result

Now it's go back to sleep as a busy day doing nothing later

:)
 
Michael 345 said:
Problem

ENERGY is a PROPERTY of stuff. It has no physicality hence there is nothing to dissipate

:)
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I suppose in a way entropy is measure of dissipation of energy, if you consider that when energy becomes more randomised, spread out and unavailable to do work, that constitutes a form of dissipation. But indeed, it obviously can't disappear.
 
The plot thickens.

https://www.britannica.com/video/185376/lack-energy-conservation

TRANSCRIPT
One of the fundamental principles in modern physics is that there is no absolute time. And I'm not even talking about relativity making time go at different rates if you're going near light speed. I just mean that any time is as good as any other to set your clock to zero. The predictions of physics work all the same. It's not like there's some absolute starting time. I mean, if there were, time zones wouldn't work.
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In addition to allowing time zones, the fact that there is no absolute time also implies the law of conservation of energy. Here's a simple proof to show that if a force doesn't depend explicitly on time, then that force conserves energy. First, conserving energy just means that there's a certain number, called the energy, which doesn't change as time passes. If you compare the energy at two different times, you'll see no difference.
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Michael 345 said:
I go for Big Rip which in essence is a version of Heat Death as I understand

Perhaps a stage further. Heat Death appears to leave some particles intact with their kinetic energy (movement - speed of travel) intact

Big Rip goes the extra step and atoms (particles?) are disintegrated

So what happens when there are no particles (stuff) to have properties???

:)
Click to expand...
Fields have properties too and can possess energy. For instance, there is stored energy in the field of an electromagnet* and there is of course energy in EM radiation, which consists of oscillating electric and magnetic fields. So a physical "system" need not necessarily involve matter in order to have energy as one of its properties.

(And just to make matters worse, matter itself is nowadays accounted for in terms of fields, in QFT.:biggrin: )


* When an electromagnet is energised, work has to be done against the electric field that a changing magnetic field induces. Work also has to be done to align the magnetic moments of the atoms in the iron core of the magnet. Both of these represent stored energy, which is released again when the magnet is de-energised.
 
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