Do you agree with capital punishment?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Norsefire, Dec 17, 2007.

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Do you agree with capital punishment?

  1. Yes, criminals asked for it

    32.7%
  2. No, no one deserves execution, no matter what their crimes

    49.1%
  3. Yes, but only for murder

    18.2%
  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,985
    Does it matter who we kill?

    Source: NYTimes.com
    Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/19/us/19death.html
    Title: "Lawyer Reveals Secret, Toppling Death Sentence", by Adam Liptak
    Date: January 19, 2008

    Maybe there's a reason so many lawyers are going to hell. Some days, it would seem, that's their only choice.

    This is not the first time the courts have saved Mr. Atkins' life. In 2002, his case reached the U.S. Supreme Court, which overturned its prior opinion and spared Atkins' life in ruling against the execution of the mentally retarded. While Virginia contends that Atkins is not mentally retarded, the issue may well be rendered moot by this latest decision. Citing prosecutorial misconduct, a state court commuted Atkins' sentence.

    York County attorney Eileen Addison denies the misconduct, and has described it in a court filing as "false and libelous". Yet there seems to be fifteen minutes missing from the recording; the session start and end times are two hours apart, and there is only 105 minutes recorded.

    So what has happened here? Is the commonwealth satisfied as long as somebody dies? Or should they make sure they've got the right guy? The law, apparently, is specific about who dies, and the accusation, if credible, casts serious doubt on the legitimacy of the prosecution's contention that Atkins was the trigger.

    So if the people are going to kill someone, what right do they have to be confident they're killing the right person according to the law? Or does it just not matter?
     
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  3. Frud11 Banned Banned

    Messages:
    567
    To the CPers: if killing someone is a really good solution, and would send the sort of message you all seem to believe is what these low-lifes need, would any of you volunteer to "blow their brains out" for king and country, or for whatever vengeful notion of justice and restoration you think is the right one? Your country needs you, to execute the bad guys...?

    If so, does your intent to kill "the killers", say anything about your own moral or ethical compass?

    Do you know who George Orwell was, and have you read any of his stuff?
     
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  5. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    1982 (or whatever year it was) was really scary when you look at what had been happerning to the US (we will have to see if its still relivent after the election)

    never read animal farm but i really should
     
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  7. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    53,887
  8. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    was only 2 years off

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  9. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,671
    Kind of the usual stupid argument, but I wasn't expecting else:

    If I say yes, would you believe me? If I say no, would that invalidate CP?

    Just because I don't like to handle garbage, it doesn't mean:

    1. Garbage doesn't need to be collected.
    2. Somebody else won't do it.

    What if I get paid for it? I assume being a state executioner is a pad job...

    P.S.: Let's assume you like and it hamburgers. Would you kill a cow?
     
  10. Frud11 Banned Banned

    Messages:
    567
    Actually, I hate hamburgers. But I have slaughtered sheep with a knife for dog-tucker (farm dogs have to eat too), and for human consumption (a "home-kill"). It isn't what you would call a pleasant task (you need to be quick or it's not too pleasant for the sheep), and you have to dig a hole or find an offal pit for the "leftovers", but food is kind of important.

    Are you suggesting this should be the fate of executed prisoners, to become dog-food, or hamburgers? Why does getting paid come into it? I got paid for my time as a farm worker, but it didn't make the animal butchering any more enjoyable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2008
  11. Benthur Registered Member

    Messages:
    44
    You guys make me laugh. Jail a vacation? HA thats real funny. There is nothing fun about jail. I've been I know. Innocent people get locked up all of the time, our technology has not improved much of this. Again I know. I don't believe in capital punishment because although the criminal suffers for a moment it doesn't make you the family and friends of the victim feel any better in fact you feel worse. I grew up in a bad neighborhood people killed each other left and right. Vengeful murders only cause more pain and no peace. NONE.
     
  12. mountainhare Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,287
    Ben:
    So it's inhumane to make an innocent suffer such a thing. Execution all the way!
     
  13. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,671
    And ladies and gentlemen, here we should end this debate....

    Your inability to see a VERY simple analogy disqualifies you from participating in ANY debate. You are free to go...

    P.S.: In case you are curious about my analogy, and would like to understand it, ask any 15 years old high school debater, you will be enlightened...
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2008
  14. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,671
    Sarcasm hat on...

    So we should stop ALL kind of punishment, after all you can't guaranbtee that an innocent man won't spend his life wrongfully in prison.

    Wait a minute!! I ALREADY made this argument 200 pages ago!!!

    So you advocating prison as a harsher punishment, compared to CP. Actually that is a good argument, although I can conterargue torture+CP.

    But I already did 300 pages ago!!!

    How you fucking would know? I could quote 100s of relatives who wanted CP....

    Sarcasm hat off...

    Seriously anti-CP people, this is getting desperate, ALL your arguments have been presented and refuted. from now on I will be just making fun of you. Well, I already did 20 pages ago...
     
  15. Frud11 Banned Banned

    Messages:
    567
    By whom?
    You haven't said anything convincing, except to yourself, maybe.

    So killing the bad guys is like killing cows?
    Except we kill cows usually because people want to eat them. What did I miss with your brilliant analogy, the one that a 15 year old would have no trouble with (especially if they like ground beef, possibly)?

    I'll leave the debate when it's over, maybe (or I might get bored with my attempts at understanding why some think it's perfectly logical, no morals required, to kill people, if a judge or jury says they're guilty--after all, we all know how perfect the justice system is).
     
  16. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,671
    I feel very generous today, so consider this post a gift:

    No, the analogy was about a dirty/unwanted job that needs to be done. Just because you or I are not willing to kill a person, that doesn't mean the person shouldn't be eliminated. There will be always somebody to do that.

    Just like I might personally wouldn't kill a cow, but since I and others eat burgers, the cow needs to be killed.

    Now I can explain it S L O W E R, but if you didn't get it by now, you won't get it at all...

    Also you missed my idea of using executed people's organs (utilianiarism), thus they can repay their debt to society. Except a few organs like kidneys, you can agree that it is hard to use a life sentenced person's heart....

    There you go. Next time really ask that 15 years old...
     
  17. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,162
    You get to make up for the mistake later if they are not dead. In fact this happens a lot these days with the DNA project the name of which I cannot remember.

    You have not found the magic bullet against the antiCP crowd.
     
  18. C1ay Skepticist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    162
    Late comer here but none of the poll options are viable for me anyhow, a past death penalty supporter. I think there are certainly some criminals that deserve to die but man doesn't do a good enough job sorting them out. An increasing number of inmates are being freed for crimes they didn't actually commit and it would be awfully hard to free any dead ones. If society can't utilize the death penalty with 100% accuracy then it shouldn't use it at all. There is no acceptable excuse that any human should ever face the death penalty for a crime they didn't commit.
     
  19. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,671
    Much better to lock the maybe innocent up for 20-30-40 years, so they can suffer real good...
     
  20. C1ay Skepticist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    162

    At least you would be able to set them free though. If you were wrongly convicted would you rather get out eventually or get dead?
     
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,985
    On what's wrong with the bloodlusters

    Indeed, I've been finding it hard to give pro-homicide argument much credibility since the people making it don't appear to take the issue seriously.

    • • •​

    See my note to Benthur above. Your arguments are a good example of what I'm talking about. For instance, this particular one-liner of yours seems to suggest the following:

    If a person is wrongly convicted of a crime, it is more appropriate to kill them since it might take years to discover and appropriately demonstrate the error, and the intervening time might cause them to suffer.

    For instance:

    A defendant who claims innocence is convicted of committing a double murder. Twenty-two years later, the Federal Bureau of Investigation finally acknowledges that the forensic methods used to connect the only piece of physical evidence to the convict was so wrong as to be groundless.

    Additionally, the attorney for an alleged accomplice in the murders, upon the death of his client, announces that his client had long ago confessed to sole responsibility in the murders, seemingly exonerating the defendant.

    The defendant is not given a new trial. Rather, the state bar moves to discipline the attorney for ethics violations. Specifically, event though his client is dead, the attorney is referred to the state bar because the trial judge feels the revelation of potentially exculpatory evidence violates a dead man's privilege.​

    Are you asserting that death would be a better option for this defendant? Would you assert that executing such a convict is better for society than making sure he's actually guilty?

    Because that's the implication of your sarcasm.

    And, yes, it's very hard to give your argument any credibility when it's so fundamentally vicious.
     
  22. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,671
    Or the 3rd choice, driving me crazy being wrongfully convicted and staying in prison until I DIE...

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  23. Frud11 Banned Banned

    Messages:
    567
    Would you eat burgers if you did have to kill cows? You're one of these consumer types, I see.

    You don't eat people, but they still need to be killed? That's no dilemma or anything, with your analogy? Commoditise the remains of criminals, and set up an industry, with a ready-made market?
    Why not have an abbatoir? turn them into dog-food? Your idea about going the Chinese way with the useful bits might be a more profitable setup, for sure, given the price of a kidney or a lung these days. Then again, how sure can anyone be about how healthy any of them are?

    You'd need a team of inspectors to check it all out for parasites, then there are viral infections, and so on. Just chuck the lot in a big boiler and make dog tucker. Problem solved.
     

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