Denial of Evolution VI.

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by garbonzo, Jun 4, 2013.

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  1. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    In the link provided it says the following in the section on panspermia
    http://garvandwane.com/evolution/panspermia.html

    It might be pertinent to really understand what was found in the Murchison Meteorite.

    This looks pretty convincing doesn't it?
    "Fossilized Bacteria in Murchison and Efremovka"
    http://www.panspermia.org/zhmur1.htm

    Now if the meteorite already contained life forms I wonder if the actual meteorite has been aged?

    I don't know how accurate this is but if it is anywhere near the truth life didn't form on Earth first.
    http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q998.html
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2013
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    On the face of it you could be right, but there are other conditions on Mercury that may hinder the relatively "undisturbed" evolution of life.

    Mercury is both the hottest and the coldest planet in our solar system with an average temperature of 350F.
    Read more: http://www.ehow.com/about_4578520_what-average-temperature-mercury.html#ixzz2bFleNVra

    And during "nighttime" the temperature would drop by several hundred degrees
    http://scitalk.wordpress.com/2008/03/12/temperature-difference-on-mercury-why/

    In addition, as Merury's magnetic field it is only about 1% the strength of earth's magnetic field, it is exposed to much greater amounts of destructive radiation. Combine this with its proximity to the sun and it's solar flares spewing deadly (scattering) radiation, I wonder if there was that much chance for Mercury to develop anything of any complexity. The ingredients are there, but perhaps need to follow different expressions such as growing crystals during the cold phase, which promptly melt when the sun phase starts. But who knows? Nothing in nature surprises me anymore. It's evolution appears to allow almost infinite expression under an enormous range of conditions, each producing a different adaptation.

    Now, if we could find evidence of a planet which is much older than earth and which does have life (in any form), it is entirely possible that the potential of life has existed long before the earth did it's own "improvisation on a theme" and has an even older evolutionary chain as we can ascertain.

    After all, we are all made of the stuff of stars.
     
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  5. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    Only one major objection to what you have said above and that is all of the facts that you've mentioned relate to Mercury after the Sun has passed out of the proto-Sun period. It is in the main sequence stage now, OK, and all of the facts (above) are true but try and conceive what it was like during the late proto-sun period. That is the secret which seems to stump most but if you are getting meteorites with "bacteria" in them that are really old as mentioned, this life formed in the protosun period so it is essential that at least one planet formed early and I have shown why it was Mercury. (Note I show in the "Life on Mercury" thread that the 4 terrestrial planets formed during this period but only Mercury would have been warm enough for life.)
    Tell me what Mercury was like in the proto-sun period? You won't find it on the net for it is a new idea. But use your imagination and tell me if you can please?
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps this may help in our discovery

    and
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_and_evolution_of_the_Solar_System
     
  8. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    When you look at the changes that occurred between the start of the collapse of the nebula to the formation of the Earth it always seems so rushed to me. So if they say the meteorite is 4.95 billion years old they are virtually saying it came in from another star system as did the rest of the heavier elements. So do you agree with that, or do you think the dating just a little bit out?

    As far as the temperature of the early inner solar system goes, I wonder how they worked that out. I wouldn't be surprised that it is just an educated guess to explain the composition of the terrestrial planets and not really based on any actual scientific measurement.
    Since Kepler has been finding exo-planets they have had to revise the planet building theories, so this may need updating too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler_(spacecraft)
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for the link, very interesting stuff, but it does not seem to explain the evolutionary process of solar and/or planetary systems.

    The link I cited does explain that temperatures are very high during the formation of a star and undoubtedly, any matter that is not pulled in and orbits close to the intense heat generated are unable to form certain elements or indeed molecules, except heavy metals which are heat resistant. IMO, this is how they can declare with some accuracy that the 4 planets closest to the sun consist of metals, while those farther removed could remain gaseous, even as the may be considerably larger and massive?
     
  10. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    I'll look into it again tomorrow, late here.
    It is pretty important to my hypotheses that this is challenged so I will consider the whole problem and see if there is some other solution possible. Thanks for the debate. I did remember that this was on the denial of Evolution thread, but it locks in closely to where life formed and the evolution of the pre-cellular replicators so it was still on topic.
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I agree and it is a fascinating subject. If we could find a complex molecular system elsewhere that would change a lot of our understanding. I believe that on Mars they have found some interesting objects resembling complex systems, which suggest that there may indeed be life on other planets.
     
  12. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    I believe our sun is a second generation star, with its first demise/boom, the source of the material for our solar system. This scenario would keep all the material centered on the original solar site for the subsequent solar system.

    Other solar systems are out there, but these are not quite as common as one would expect. This could be explained as being dependent on the size of the stage one boom. If it is too powerful you don't get a solar system but only new stars will form from sparse debris, since sparse debris can't collapse into planets with a star nearby.
     
  13. river

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    Explain further , by what you mean by , " our sun is a second generation star " I'm curious
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2013
  14. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    Well the way I think you are imagining the generations is completely different to the way I think of it. I imagine the Earth and the Solar System being the result of several exploding stars plus a large amount primordial interstellar hydrogen and Helium all coalesced.
    Even I struggle with my own conception of how it all works, for I'd like to know how far away were these exploding stars and just where are their remnant black hole cores?
    They recently worked out that gold was formed from two colliding stars. Uranium I believe must be from a super nova explosion. These two events were not the same, am I correct? Is it essential to have a total mixture of many catastrophic events to provide the material for a life supporting solar system?
     
  15. river

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    Interesting , but disagree

    I see the Earth and all planets , as ejections from the Sun its self
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    and

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_and_evolution_of_the_Solar_System

    The problem with your interpretation is that once matter enters the gravitational field of the sun it is absorbed, or (if moving fast enough) flung out into space.
     
  17. river

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    My thinking has nothing to do with the Sun , absorbing matter

    Rather the Sun ejects matter in order to balance its self
     
  18. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    In a way you could be right but you need to say "Proto-sun" instead of "Sun".
    The diffuse nebula changes into the Proto-sun once the contraction begins, as it contracts the angular momentum of the heavier parts force themselves (flung could be a description) to the outer edges. The material collapsing into center is predominantly hydrogen and helium for these elements can never generate the angular momentum to begin orbiting the proto-sun. (The protosun acts like a huge centrifuge spinning the heavier elements to the outer edge of the proto-sun, till they break away forming the protoplanetary dust disc.
    So the heavier elements exiting protosun reduce the net angular momentum of what remains in the protosun.

    Ending up with the ratios of the Sun having 95 % of the mass of the original nebula, but only 5% of the total angular momentum.
    And the 5% of the mass in the planets has 95% of the total angular momentum.
    (These figures aren't meant to be accurate but that is how I remember it.
    You get the picture. Refine the quantities if you need to be accurate.)
     
  19. river

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    So your still defending the theory that planets are the result of the coalescing of dust particles
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    You keep ignoring the actual interpretation. I'll repeat it once more.
    The protoplanetary disk already contains many elements, and is the very reason why the disk is formed to begin with. As the the protostar collapses it gains in gravity, pulling things in, but also increases its spin and increasing the speed of the surrounding matter. The centrifugal rings can easily be identified by the composition of objects having the proper mass and speed to remain in orbit.
    On a plenatary level, Saturn is a perfect example of separation of matter according to their mass and momentum.
    http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/profile.cfm?Object=Saturn&Display=Rings

    What is so difficult to understand about that? Seems pretty straight forward to me. Unless you can demonstrate otherwise, I'll accept the conventional wisdom, which no doubt has been observed in other formations of other planetary systems. I am not saying this is the only way, but this is one scientifically accepted theory.

    The sun contains no iron or ever did. If it did it would be on the verge of going nova. Heavy elements can only be created at extremely high pressure and temperatures, such as in the center of a star that has exhausted its fuel and is about to die. Therefore all heavy metals have come from other stars which went nova and no longer exist in their original form.

    Obviously in a protostar system these forces are not yet in play.
     
  21. river

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    Conventional understanding is a start and a foundation on which to start , I have no problem with that

    The thing is though can you flex your mind to think out of the conventional thinking box
     
  22. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    Is there another? Explain what is the alternative is then?
     
  23. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    What Write4U is saying is already out of the box. The separation of the protosun into the protoplanetary disc is not widely known. It seems logical to me and it is great that you can see it working too.
    So what is the reason you are promoting this other system which to me defies any logic. If you still think it is logical you'd better explain it again please.
     
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