Counterproposal: Don't dress like a slut...

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by visceral_instinct, May 22, 2008.

  1. francois Schwat? Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,515
    Niiiice job dude. Keeping up with the non-seqs I see.

    All I'm saying is that there's a difference between a scenario in which a rapist breaks into a woman's apartment and rapes her, and a scenario in which a woman walks alone scantily clad in a dark alley and gets raped. You're not allowing for a difference. How insulting to women who have had rapists break into their homes to rape them! If you're going to be so insulting to those women, why don't you complete the deal by slapping them in the face and calling them whores?
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. phlogistician Banned Banned

    Messages:
    10,342
    It was a logical follow on, maybe you don't understand the term you are recently so fond of!

    You seem to be setting Bells a trap, trying to get a 'yes' answer to a rather vague question, as if that has any bearing on the specifics of the debate.

    There is no difference, in that neither 'asked for it'. Stop


    Oh dear, straw man alert. It's you that's being insulting, not me.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. francois Schwat? Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,515
    There's absolutely nothing vague about it. That's the precise meat of the debate.

    Alright man. You see no difference. Fine. I call that crazy, and I believe other rational people would too. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. phlogistician Banned Banned

    Messages:
    10,342
    Bullshit, it was a trap, and a clumsy one at that.


    I see no difference, because there is no difference. Nobody invites rape. You are implying that rape is somehow more justified if the victim is dressed a certain way, and that is just screwed up thinking. Rational people would disagree with YOU, and they are, right on this thread.
     
  8. francois Schwat? Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,515
    Come back when you actually have something to say other than "I believe this because... this is what I believe!"
     
  9. francois Schwat? Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,515
    What about this scenario.

    A person walks out of his doorstep and instantly gets murdered by a thug for no reason other than for being there.

    A person provokes a thug in a dangerous city at night and gets murdered.

    Do you see any difference?
     
  10. phlogistician Banned Banned

    Messages:
    10,342

    That's you, describing you. Various arguments have been made to you, but you have ignored them all. You're getting owned here, but you're too egotistical to see it.
     
  11. phlogistician Banned Banned

    Messages:
    10,342
    As you used the term 'murdered' in both scenarios, I guess you can't distinguish between the two events either! :bugeye:
     
  12. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    23,385
    If she wears iron underwear. And even then, that's a maybe. She can still be raped by the rapist jamming his penis down her throat.

    But prey tell, how would you advise women in general to decrease the chances of their being raped? Keep in mind that the majority of women who become rape victims are raped by people they know, and that very few rape cases actually involve complete strangers. So, how should those women decrease their chances of being raped? What about men who walk down a dark alley and are raped. Should they dress differently as well?

    The scenario leading up to the rape may be different, but the rape itself is still a criminal act whereby the victim has no control over the actions or thought processes of the rapist. And that's something you can't seem to grasp.

    She (or he) could be wearing full body armour or dressed in a tent and she (or he) could still be raped in the public toilet at the local supermarket as well as in a dark alley, their home, doctors surgery, etc. I mean honestly. Think about it.

    You are still placing the onus on the victim to not be raped. And you don't see anything wrong in that?
     
  13. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,913
    That's not an accurate analogy. A woman walking down the street in skimpy clothing is just minding her own business. The person in your scenario is actively provoking someone.
     
  14. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,535
    You can always order food delivered to the apartment. But my guess is you go out occasionally and walk the city streets. Are you asking to be beaten up by thugs? Should women dress down? I'll bet a woman stands less chance of being raped if she scars her face or does not clean herself - not that this would stop many rapists, but some. Does this make showering an invitation for rape.

    I assume you appreciate middle eastern dress codes for women. Covering the head, or everthing but the eyes also reduces attractiveness and perhaps some of the risk.

    I assume you do not wear a watch and even if you had a lot of money you would not spend it on a car, since a car, being valuable, is asking to be robbed, carjacked.

    Since men are also potential victims of rape, I assume you also do not leave the house much and when you do you have friends meet you.

    Who is your ideal? I mean what women could not reduce the liklihood of being raped. She could rub shit on her clothes. Does every woman who does not own a German Shepherd or similar dog also ask for rape when she leaves her apartment, dogless?

    You are focused on rape here and how women can reduce their chances of being raped. But the fact that suddenly you and other men think in these terms when it comes to rape and do not think in these kinds of critical terms when it comes to crimes that men are as likely to be suseptible to is telling. Oh, I am sure you say 'he was asking for it' if he took out a wad of money from his pocket, alone, late at night in a dangerous area, in front of strangers. I am sure you do this too. But the levels of idiocy would have to be higher, wouldn't they?

    And you never notice how the arguments you put forward have no boundaries. We could use them to shift women back into the homes, period and have dress codes no longer fashionable in the West. In many cultures not having a male family member escort is seen as asking for it. Why is that wrong?

    And how much time do you spend teaching men about how much women are not really asking for it compared to how much time you spend teaching women how it was really their own fault?
     
  15. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,535
    And you are right on the mark here. Some men think it is an attack. A specific provocation aimed at them. I don't assume that a man dressed up in expensive clothes and wearing expensive rings or who has worked out a lot is provoking me personally, nor do I assume that he is asking for me to fuck up his clothes or steal his jewellery.

    Lots of people have things I would like to have. Many of them could be said to flaunt this. I don't assume that they are asking for me to take these things from them.
     
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,317
    You're just not credible on this, Francois

    Sorry, but you're just not believable on that. Perhaps if the statement in question was a one-time thing, but there's obviously no point in reiterating its juxtaposition with other things you wrote in this topic. Given the difficulty people have had in getting you to the point that you offered that really lame excuse, I don't expect you to pull back and attempt to address the broader issue.

    Seriously, Francois, if you had actually attempted to answer the issues earlier, taken a broader approach to the subject, and not offered up anger and self-righteousness as an early response to the challenges you faced, maybe that truly pathetic excuse would be at least mildly persuasive. See, then, at least, we could pretend that you just never stopped to think about it.

    Which brings us to the next point:

    I'm not sure that helps your credibility. Especially given the conclusion you seem to have reached.

    Well, you could try it according to the example I provided: "Having black skin in the United States is asking to be thrown in prison."

    According to your argument, this would mean the same thing as what reality suggests. And, frankly, it doesn't.

    For the record, reality suggests quite clearly that being a black male in the U.S., your chances of entering the penal system, statistically, are disproportionately higher than if you're white.

    The thing is that a woman is not a car, and a man is not the weather. The car does not get the random urge to get up and go dancing. The weather does not single out anyone to rain on. And the goddamn lobster is dead. If it squirts you when you crack it open, I can promise you the thing wasn't thinking, "He's not wearing a bib! He wants me to squirt my hot stuff all over him!"

    Let's be as simple as we can: Failing to acknowledge a statistical probability pertaining to inanimate objects is not synonymous with inviting a thinking creature to do harm.

    There is a difference between taking your chances against the rain and encouraging a person to do harm.

    There is a difference between putting a Club or alarm on your car and chaining your wife or daughter to the radiator.

    There is a difference between what you're trying so desperately to pretend to be and what you're actually portraying.
     
  17. DeepThought Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,461
    I see, you've slyly changed it to 'people' now, instead of women, so as to muddy the issue.

    In return for not raping a woman, the woman should dress very conservatively, showing off as little flesh as possible, so as not to goad the man. Preferably, she should be completely covered. Anything less than this is a degradation of nature, and an attempt to manipulate others.
     
  18. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,913
    Yeah, wearing a my loose Vader T-shirt that was probably made for a guy twice my size that actually shows my forearms is goading a man.

    That's beside the point though.

    When a woman goes up to a man and sexually assaults him, then he can say she was goading him or asking for it. But when she's walking down the street minding her own business, sorry but that's a matter for no one but her.

    You just love to piss people off don't you?
     
  19. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,888
    Exactly.
    Women should stay covered all the time.
    It saves men having to act like responsible human beings and respect women.
     
  20. DeepThought Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,461

    A man acts like a responsible human being when he controls his sexual urges, but a woman does the opposite when she manipulates them to get attention.

    Ignorance of the law does not excuse.
     
  21. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,888
    Manipulates?

    Which law?
     
  22. codanblad a love of bridges Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,397
    a man's sexual urges are a powerful force. rape is wrong, but dressing sexily is literally providing motivation. i agree with 'girls who dress like sluts are asking for it' because just about every creature is designed for sex, dressing in something sexy flips the switch labelled 'primal urges'. who's to say these urges aren't stronger than the moral codes you're expecting this person to have.

    i know men should act responsibly, but we're literally animals. animals don't ask permission. i am in no way encouraging or condoning rape, its a horrific bestial thing, but i feel people are getting too caught up in morality and stuff, and missing some of the facts.

    again, rape is bad. but if you pull the pin out of a grenade, is it your fault or the grenade's when it blows up? when a man sees cleavage/legs/whatever, there's a lot of chemical reactions going on in his body. high heels arch the feet, simulating feet during orgasm. the stuff you're wearing is designed to expose and emphasise sexual features.
     
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,317
    The problems of rape advocacy

    Try again, Codanblad. In case you hadn't noticed, nobody's buying the routine whereby you say, "I'm not encouraging or condoning rape," and then turn around and make all sorts of excuses for rapists, like:

    • "i agree with 'girls who dress like sluts are asking for it' because just about every creature is designed for sex, dressing in something sexy flips the switch labelled 'primal urges'." — See, don't condone rape and then try to pretend that you're not condoning rape.

    • "who's to say these urges aren't stronger than the moral codes you're expecting this person to have." — If your urges are stronger than you are capable of controlling, seek inpatient psychiatric help.

    • "i know men should act responsibly, but we're literally animals. animals don't ask permission." — You know what else we are, Codanblad? We're members of a society. See prior point about psychiatric assistance.

    • "again, rape is bad. but if you pull the pin out of a grenade, is it your fault or the grenade's when it blows up?" — Comparing men to dangerous devices with no will of their own doesn't help your argument. In fact, you're escalating the argument from "Seek help" to, "Men should be locked up".

    • "when a man sees cleavage/legs/whatever, there's a lot of chemical reactions going on in his body" — Yeah. At least the really basic, simplistic men. Sometimes I don't understand the social definition of arousing. Like these mythical skanky women all slutted up and walking through an alley apparently hoping to be raped. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily kick her out of bed, but these arguments reduce male sexuality to a mere farce. Seriously, the women the rape advocates are describing aren't nearly as high on the arousal scale as the argument places them. Of course, we should not be surprised when an unhealthy perspective seeks unhealthy justification in unhealthy aesthetics.

    • "high heels arch the feet, simulating feet during orgasm." — Well, that might be the funniest sentence I've encountered among the rape advocates. Really, this tells us more about you than anyone else. It really is too bad: Y'all would be alright, if only you weren't so dangerous.

    • "the stuff you're wearing is designed to expose and emphasise sexual features." — So we're back to putting our women in burquas?​
     

Share This Page