Counterproposal: Don't dress like a slut...

the first sentence is contradictory. it is either wholly, partially or not at all (power). the rest are unwarranted assumptions in that context

 

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Re: the assertion that rape is about uncontrolled sexual urges. I'm not a man, so I wouldn't know, but however sexually excited I might be, the idea of forcing myself on someone, not that I actually could, would kind of take the edge off it just a little...know how I mean?

 

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i was initially dumbfounded at that. a backtrack seemed in order so i did so.
however the idea was intended as an anthropological and sociological observation of grooming and the reasons behind doing so. a dynamic is being initiated and the stage is being set. i believe we are discussing the script

moving on....

provocation...

In criminal law, provocation is a possible defense by excuse or exculpation alleging a sudden or temporary loss of control (a permanent loss of control is in the realm of insanity) as a response to another's provocative conduct sufficient to justify an acquittal, a mitigated sentence or a conviction for a lesser charge. Provocation can be a relevant factor in a court's assessment of a defendant's mens rea, intention, or state of mind, at the time of an act of which the defendant is accused.

Provocation is generally the result of some conduct witnessed or experienced by the defendant. In some states, mere gestures, taunts or fighting words are insufficient. ...

neither is cockteasing (unfortunately)

 

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umm
it accentuates the buttocks, lengthens the legs and tightens the calves

alternate reply

instant butt lift, baby! the bitches offer the ass up. the guys do thier best to tap it

 

i wouldn't say it because it'd be rubbing salt in the wounds, and it'd do way more harm than good. and of course i'd say to my mates 'i wish she hadn't dressed so attractively'. i'd also say 'i wish she hadn't gone', 'i wish i'd gone with her', etc. anything to have prevented it from happening.

my sympathy for my girlfriend and all people depends on how much they're suffering. you can acknowledge they might have made bad choices, but people suffering is always a sad thing.

i can see what you're trying to say, but the way i act isn't decided by my opinions, only influenced. what i say doesn't have to be what i think. my thoughts remain private when suitable (sometimes lol).

 

I find the whole idea of "dressing provocatively" ridiculous. Let me talk completely subjectively, as an Indian woman. The traditional attire for a female Indian adult is the sari. Now, it's too complicated to explain the sari if you haven't seen one being worn but it's basically a long piece of cloth wound around the body over a short, tight blouse. Basically, the whole body is covered except the waist... (Incidentally, the female waist is considered extremely sexy by Indian men, I'd say even more so than breasts or legs) Now this is considered the "proper" traditional clothes for a woman to wear. However, wearing a pair of jeans and a t-shirt is considered less proper than a sari despite the fact that it covers every inch of skin that could be considered provocative. Now, according to several enlightened men here, I'd be "asking for it" if I wore the jeans because it is considered more "slutty" where I live. But, in fact, a "virtuous" woman who wears only saris is equally likely to get raped as is a women who wears a salwar-kameez which covers even more of the body than jeans. So no matter which outfit I choose, I'm "asking for it", because I can never say which man would find which outfit arousing. What I'm trying to say is that the definition of "slutty" varies from individual to individual, culture to culture--and any argument based on such a variable would be invalid. So let's stop trying to pretend that a woman can control a man's mind and desires by what she wears.

 

there's a lot more clothes than saris and jeans. i bet certain clothes would attract a whole less attention than the clothes chicks wear clubbing. sure there'd be a tiny number that like whatever clothes we can pick, but it about reducing likelihood, not eliminating it.

that said, apparently most rape is about power. i'm only talking about the portion that is affected by what women wear. no one thinks 'im gonna rape that cardboard box shuffling across the pavement'.

 

So basically you're saying: "Oh you'll get raped anyway, but dress conservatively, in a way that wouldn't arouse men, just in case."

You have completely missed my point. I'm trying to say that no matter how women dress, men still rape them.

 

What if scanty clothing is in fact functional (to avoid overheating), like when you're dancing in a nightclub, or it's a brutally hot summer? What if you've got a high metabolism and overheat easily? Should a woman wear 'modest' clothing and suffer from heatstroke, because otherwise she's asking to be raped?

 

Women should wear whatever the hell they like.

Women who are raped should report it.

And for those men who think women who dress in 'small' clothes are 'asking for it'. Please do not confuse 'asking for it' with 'yes loser I'd like to fuck you now so why don't you come over and brutally assault me against my will.' as a good few years in jail often offends (as any rapist whose ever bent down in the showers of an all male prison will tell ya.)

So to reiterate to those men who think that women are asking to be raped because they dare to be out at night dressed in anything less than a burka.

WOMEN WHO ARE OUT AT NIGHT REGARDLESS OF THEIR ATTIRE ARE NOT ASKING TO BE RAPED!

Is that clear enough for you fellas?

 

I agree with you, I was being sarcastic, or I wouldn't have started this thread.

 

Do not assume that I was addressing you.

As far as I'm concerned such a matter is not a matter for debate; hence the style of my post. If a woman walks the street naked she is not 'asking' to be raped. No woman is asking for, or deserving of, rape.

 

an age old ritual......
"you are not going out dressed like that, are you?" says mom

generational mores or something more?

 

This and that

One wonders how much social conditioning comes into that. Because, like I said, I don't recall ever hearing anyone assert that high heels are comfortable.

Something I noted to Codanblad implies a certain contrast:

Has it ever occurred to you that there is beauty among humans that doesn't lead to fucking?

And that's at the heart of it. While women are judged on their looks in matters of socialization, education, and hiring, apparently if they play along in the least, they're asking to be fucked.​

I made this point because I regularly encounter women in business attire that includes high heels. I don't think a lawyer in a thousand-dollar suit is suggesting with high heels that anyone should try to penetrate her.

So the contrast is why a woman would wear high heels:

• Because she's horny and wants someone to have sex with her.
• Because she perceives such shoes as part of an expected "uniform".​

In the vast majority of cases, I'm going to go with #2, or even a third, more obscure reason that, in wearing high heels, a woman increases her apparent height and projects a notion of power or authority that may or may not be real. What, for instance, is the current rule of thumb for those who would "dress for success"?

Anyone remember Robin Williams' lesbian joke from Good Morning Vietnam? We don't call them dykes. We call them women in comfortable shoes.

Feminism 101: A woman is expected to tart herself up in order to be taken seriously, although, since she is tarted up, she is not to be taken seriously.

This is true almost exclusively because phallocentric society has such a broad definition of what constitutes tarting or slutting it up.

• • •​

A note for Codanblad:

I haven't been ignoring you, but rather, in light of #132, I intend to give you room to work and maneuver. Part of the reason is that you really do seem to be trying. At the same time, I confess I find the obligation to take certain ideas seriously wearying. And, to be sure, you appear to still be thinking too much about yourself. Rubbing salt in the wounds? That would suggest the point is excessive. Do more harm than good? Absolutely correct. But you'd still say it to your mates, and still make it about you: "anything to have prevented it from happening".

No. You know what, man? There's nothing you or anyone else could have done to prevent it from happening. Woulda-coulda-shoulda disappears once the reality is upon someone close to you. One of the first things you realize when it's someone close to you is that none of that matters. As a practical matter, it's a strange place to be. Part of you wants to bolt; this is more than most of us, as friends and family of rape survivors, are prepared to deal with. But another part will beg for impossibility: What can I do to bring about healing?

It seems a contradiction. There is nothing you can do to bring about healing. To the other, though, there is a lot you can do to help.

When you stay, you accept certain burdens that can, if you let them, drive you mad. They're dynamic obligations that never present themselves in any definitive sense. But at the same time, they are insubstantial in a certain context: it is absurd to complain about them. After all, when it's not your ass that requires surgical repair, or your blood that needs to be tested over and over again for HIV, or your wardrobe, reputation, musical taste, hairstyle, manner of talking to people, and essential self that is put on trial in order to defend a rapist, you're the lucky one.

When we stay, we accept our burdens gladly. And if we cannot do that, we should abandon ship and never pretend for a moment that we do so for any other reason than our inability or unwillingness to stand with our friends and family in hours of dire necessity.

 

here is another point. Your going to meet your partner for his\her Birthday (aniversary, who cares what its about) and yes you intend to have sex so you dress up "provoctivaly" to surprise them.

Now some people on here seem to be suggesting that because a person has an intention to alow ONE person to have sex with them and acts acordingly that means its ok for every other person to rape them???

Your joking right

To the person who was talking about rape fantasy it has nothing to do with REAL rape. Alot of partners fantasise about power and control, why do you think handcuffs are so popular. Firstly it goes back to the supression of womens sexuality because if a women is forced then she isnt responcable for wanting it and so can lay back and enjoy it without guilt. There are alot of other reasons as well going deeper into dominace and submission which i cant be bothered going into but the big difference between this and REAL rape is that the submissive partner knows that if they want to stop (by using a code word or whatever) the other person WILL stop (ie they have trust in there partner). This most cirtanly isnt the case in rape.

Lastly bells and tiassa are right in there comments that a) rape is MOST common by someone you know (ie a partner, date rape, a family member or a close friend). Random rapes are quite uncommon and though i dont have exact statistics i would guess they are probably around the same level as random murders (ie VERY low)

and b) that rape is about power rather than sex. Hell if sex was all it was about then we could end rape by the state subsidising hookers.

Now we all know there are cirtan things ANYONE can do to protect themselves in SOME situations. For instance making sure you buy your OWN drinks and that no one else every touches them, yet even these protections dont always work. A friend of PB's had her drink spiked when she was at a club recently. She did the right thing and looked after her drink and she was with not only her partner but with a bouncer who was a close friend of hers (which was VERY lucky it turns out). She colapsed and ended up in hospital and when the police investigated it turns out it was the barmen who was spiking the drinks. How do you protect yourself from that?

Life is about risk and even locking yourself up in your house wont mitigate that risk, all anyone can do is be cauious but when that fails we shouldnt be blaming the victom. Its the person who comits the offence who is at fault

 

i think perhaps if the disparity in income b/w the sexes is eliminated, women could be just like men. a fuck for fucks sake and not as a bargaining chip or leverage.

i got a lot of pleasure from eyeballing the gi bitches in iraq barking orders to the native menfolk

 

here's my opinion, as simple as i can put it.

an amoral man who enjoys sex is out for a stroll in the park at night. he's been to jail before, he's not afraid of the law. while walking he thinks to himself:

'hmm you know, this park is really dark at night. and women walk through here by themselves. perhaps i'll lie in wait, capture a beautiful woman and have glorious sex with her, confident in the odds that i won't be caught. many rapes aren't even reported, and seeing as i'll be wearing a balclava, her police report will be meaningless.'

so he lies in wait for a beautiful woman. like most men, he finds girls dressed sexily more attractive than girls wearing a hoodie and jeans. so that's who he rapes.

all i'm saying is that situation is a possibility. wearing sexy clothes might make you the target, or encourage men capable (but not determined at the time, until seeing you in skank attire and being turned on) of rape. i'm working on the assumption slutty clothes make women more attractive to men. and that some men decide to rape simply cos they see something they want. they probably love dominating that person as well, they love power.

is my suggestion a possibility? i read a book by a woman who survived rape, and she didn't know the man who raped her, he just grabbed her in a park and did her in the bushes. whether or not you believe that is up to you i suppose, her story was that she later helped police catch her rapist and wrote the book to help women deal with rape.

RAPE IS AWFUL

WOMEN SHOULDN'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING, RAPISTS SHOULD STOP RAPING

THERE'S A SLIGHT CHANCE WHAT YOU WEAR MIGHT AFFECT WHETHER YOU GET RAPED BY A CERTAIN KIND OF RAPIST. I'M NOT TELLING ANYONE WHAT TO WEAR, I'M JUST RAISING A POINT.

the measures a person takes to avoid rape is up to them. i reckon the values of wearing sexy clothes outweigh the minute chance you have of being raped due to what you wore. but it is a POSSIBILITY that it will have an effect.

should you disagree with me, you must be presuming to know the exact motives of every rapist and potential rapist who ever lived. that is why i have an issue with people disagreeing with me.

 

But you could say the same thing the other way around, that a woman wearing conservative attire turned on some psycho because the tought of making a prim and proper women submit to his whiles trns him on. Bottom line women and men should be careful when walking alone regardless of the time of day. And if your like me and constantly attract unwarranted attention then learn self defense or learn how to wield and carry a weapon, I've managed to do both. Its worked so far... *knock on wood*

 

it sickens me to see males get to this point
we are groveling in fear

fucking bitches
i know your game
expect hell