Are inertial forces "real"

Are inertial forces real

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 75.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other (e.g. what does "real" mean, etc)

    Votes: 2 25.0%

  • Total voters
    8
  • Poll closed .
Inertia as far as we know, is a purely intrinsic property of all matter.

Though an accurate mainstream statement, it is not quite true. The idea that inertia is an intrinsic property of mass is really a hold over from a Newton, even perhaps pre-Newton concept of matter. But is does retain a hold on the mainstream view. Where it is not quite true, even from a mainstream perspective is that, within the context of the Standard Model, the mass and thus inertia of fundamental particles, emerges from their interaction with the Higgs Field. That would make at least some part of an object's inertia, emergent rather than intrinsic.

This transition, from fundamentally intrinsic to fundamentally emergent, moves a step further in the context of some of the work and ideas of Puthoff, Haisch & Reuda, who suggest from within an SED context that inertia emerges from an interaction of the fundamental charged particles matter is composed of with the zero-point field, as the object moves through the field. In which case inertia as a whole would be emergent rather than an intrinsic property.

=======

Now to my vote. I vote yes, but I qualify that as being made from a classical everyday experience of inertia, where we can certainly measure the inertial force of a moving object as it impacts a scale and the force of gravity with every step up a staircase. So my yes, is based on that everyday experience.

I don't believe we can say with any certainty what the origins of inertia are, at this time. The answer it would seem to me lies at a quantum level, and very well may involve an interaction with the ZPF.., though from inertia to gravity seems a hard stretch right now, following that trajectory. Still, though classically I say yes, I am more inclined to favor a fundamental origin of inertia, as an emergent quantum scale interaction, rather than an intrinsic property.

It really seems to me to depend upon from where you look at the question.
 
Though an accurate mainstream statement, it is not quite true. The idea that inertia is an intrinsic property of mass is really a hold over from a Newton, even perhaps pre-Newton concept of matter. But is does retain a hold on the mainstream view. Where it is not quite true, even from a mainstream perspective is that, within the context of the Standard Model, the mass and thus inertia of fundamental particles, emerges from their interaction with the Higgs Field. That would make at least some part of an object's inertia, emergent rather than intrinsic.

This transition, from fundamentally intrinsic to fundamentally emergent, moves a step further in the context of some of the work and ideas of Puthoff, Haisch & Reuda, who suggest from within an SED context that inertia emerges from an interaction of the fundamental charged particles matter is composed of with the zero-point field, as the object moves through the field. In which case inertia as a whole would be emergent rather than an intrinsic property.

=======

Now to my vote. I vote yes, but I qualify that as being made from a classical everyday experience of inertia, where we can certainly measure the inertial force of a moving object as it impacts a scale and the force of gravity with every step up a staircase. So my yes, is based on that everyday experience.

I don't believe we can say with any certainty what the origins of inertia are, at this time. The answer it would seem to me lies at a quantum level, and very well may involve an interaction with the ZPF.., though from inertia to gravity seems a hard stretch right now, following that trajectory. Still, though classically I say yes, I am more inclined to favor a fundamental origin of inertia, as an emergent quantum scale interaction, rather than an intrinsic property.

It really seems to me to depend upon from where you look at the question.

I guess it is how you look at it, while the fundamental mechanism for mass is a Goldstone boson, one of the inert properties of particles is that of mass. Inertia is best seen as the presence of matter itself.
 
Also, I should have said in post 20, we still haven't found a mediator for gravity so it is doubtful that gravity is even a real force itself.

Gravity is a pseudoforce as well as far as we can tell.
 
No, it doesn't. It reduces to the Minkowski metric in ZERO gravitational field, not in uniform gravitational field.


This is false, I suggest that you consult a book on the subject, the stuff that you are making up is patently wrong.

Tach said:
"Zero spacetime"? This is nonsense. A uniform gravitational field is defined as having zero intrinsic curvature.

I'm looking forard to clear discussion between brucep, Tach, and pmb about intrinsic and extrinsic spacetime curvature, and the applicaton of GR and SR to the spacetime of a uniform gravitational field.

I hope that people can articulate any disagreement clearly and politely, while critically examining their own assumptions and understanding, and honestly considering the arguments of the others.

Please don't turn this discussion into a fight.
 
I'm looking forard to clear discussion between brucep, Tach, and pmb about intrinsic and extrinsic spacetime curvature, and the applicaton of GR and SR to the spacetime of a uniform gravitational field.

I hope that people can articulate any disagreement clearly and politely, while critically examining their own assumptions and understanding, and honestly considering the arguments of the others.

Please don't turn this discussion into a fight.

There is no fight, I simply pointed out some obvious errors.
 
Good!

I expect that pmb and brucep will like to discuss that with you. Please don't let that discussion become a fight.

Nope. There are certain people here who've convinced me to put them in my kill file. Tach and Trapped are two such people. One of them was extremely rude to me and I forget now what the reason for the other was - but I had a reason. Therefore I don't talk to them.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by 0 spacetime. I started out with GR so I haven't paid much attention to stuff that is a consequence of using Newtons theory but doesn't exist in GR. Like frame dependent forces.
You know that gravity is considered to be one of the 4 fundamental forces of nature. Do you think that the gravitational force does not use something like a graviton to mediate the gravitational force? This is one of the reasons I think of the gravitational force as being real, i.e. because I believe its mediated by gravitons.
 
Nope. There are certain people here who've convinced me to put them in my kill file. Tach and Trapped are two such people. One of them was extremely rude to me and I forget now what the reason for the other was - but I had a reason. Therefore I don't talk to them.

You are definitely talking to me, you were man enough (according to your own words) to admit your error on the gravitational redshift in this thread. So, it must be that you don't talk with Trapped.
 
If I read you correctly IN CONTEXT, did you inadvertently make a 'typo' by omitting the word "curvature" after "spacetime" there, mate?
Oops! Yes. Thanks for catching that. Bruce caught that too. I did mean that a uniform g-field as zero spacetime curvature as one of its defining properties. Thanks you two!! :)
 
Thanks for the input.

The reason most GRists interpret gravity as a curvature in spacetime is that they don’t perceive gravitational forces as being “real” and that’s because they can be transformed away whereas tidal forces (a second order effect) cannot be transformed away.

I’ve see people make mistakes because of this interpretation. There’s an article in the American Journal of Physics where the author assumes that because a uniform gravitational field is a gravitational field that it must have a curved spacetime. Yet a uniform gravitational field is defined as having zero spacetime curvature. Thus his thinking got mixed up because of his views and interpretation on what “real” is. That’s one of the reasons this topic is of interest to me.

You edited your error after it was flagged.
 
I'm looking forard to clear discussion between brucep, Tach, and pmb about intrinsic and extrinsic spacetime curvature, and the applicaton of GR and SR to the spacetime of a uniform gravitational field.

There is no notion of "extrinsic spacetime curvature" in relativity. The only curvature in GR is intrinsic, as embodied by the Riemann tensor, for example.
 
There is no notion of "extrinsic spacetime curvature" in relativity. The only curvature in GR is intrinsic, as embodied by the Riemann tensor, for example.
Does 'extrinsic spacetime curvature' have any meaning?
If it doesn't, then why use the 'intrinsic' qualifier in 'intrinsic spacetime curvature'? Why not just say 'spacetime curvature'?
 
Does 'extrinsic spacetime curvature' have any meaning?

It does have a meaning, not in relativity, as I explained.

If it doesn't, then why use the 'intrinsic' qualifier in 'intrinsic spacetime curvature'? Why not just say 'spacetime curvature'?

Standard terminology. In order to make it perfectly clear that we aren't talking about extrinsic curvature.
 
In what non-relativity context do we talk about spacetime curvature?

None, to my best knowledge. Spacetime is a relativity concept, you can't have " non-relativity context" and "spacetime (curvature)" in the same sentence. Where are you going with this?
 
You said that "extrinsic spacetime curvature" has a meaning, but not in relativity.
In what non-relativity context does it have a meaning?
 
You said that "extrinsic spacetime curvature" has a meaning, but not in relativity.
In what non-relativity context does it have a meaning?

"extrinsic curvature" has a meaning (in geometry) . "extrinsic spacetime curvature" has no meaning. "intrinsic spacetime curvature" has meaning (mostly in GR). In SR, "zero spacetime curvature" is a standard expression describing the Lorentzian space. Does this help?
 
"extrinsic curvature" has a meaning (in geometry) . "extrinsic spacetime curvature" has no meaning. "intrinsic spacetime curvature" has meaning (mostly in GR). In SR, "zero spacetime curvature" is a standard expression describing the Lorentzian space. Does this help?
Yes, thank you.
So, is "zero spacetime curvature" the same as "zero intrinsic spacetime curvature"?

Wouldn't that imply that a uniform gravitational field, with zero intrinsic spacetime curvature, is the same as Lorentzian space, with zero spacetime curvature?
 
Back
Top