A test for true "Atheism?"

[Dennis Tate]

If you call yourself a true Atheist.....
then you would not mind taking the "Cyrus test" that I personally did back in 1990?

I was going through a philosophical crisis at that time when I found out that my mentor Evangelist Garner Ted Armstrong had been terribly INCORRECT on his teaching about Soul Sleep........
the idea of our being totally unconscious in the grave until some sort of resurrection.

I had been an Atheist from around eight years of age until thirteen (1972 to 1973), when I began to listen to Garner Ted. He did a pretty good job of showing that traditional Darwinian Evolutionary Theory was mathematically just about impossible.

But when I first began to read near death experience accounts..... especially the few rather negative ones... .I went into something of a philosophical / theological crisis and I realized that I no longer fitted in with the Worldwide Church of God and I actually got angry with Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus on some of his statements regarding "many called, few chosen, a broad way leading to destruction and many there be who go in thereat and a narrow way leading to life and few finding it"...... that combined with evidence for rather negative afterlife realms..... and I was wondering how the Christian Bible could be MUCH WORSE NEWS!!!!

So.... here is what you do.....
go to a private place.... maybe even your car......
personally I like our basement....
raise your right hand up in the air and paraphrase your impression of Isaiah chapter forty five.....
when YHWH claims to have taken Gentile King Cyrus by the right hand.......

pray and ask for YHWH and / or Messiah Yeshua - Jesus or the G-d of Abraham, (whoever you feel more comfortable with), to take you by the right hand as they claimed to have done for ancient Gentile King Cyrus of Persia who ruled over and gave freedom of religion to all 127 provinces of the Medo - Persian Empire and who decreed that the Temple of King Solomon should be rebuilt.

I would combine this with some logic about how you are worried about your kids or grandchildren and the neighbours kids or your students....... and ask to be given something really important for the children who are growing up now because it is fairly obvious that however climate change does work out the next generations are in a lot of trouble!

Ask to be taken by the right hand and be guided to information and understanding that could really help the next generations to be safer and hopefully for some of the most likely massive soon coming problems to be addressed by wise leadership in all major aspects of our government, educational systems, arts and entertainment, medicine, industry and yes..... philosophy / spirituality.

After I prayed that way back in 1990 it was as if all my major questions and disappointments were soon answered..... but it was very much step by step by step over these last thirty years.

(Isaiah 45:1-5)
1 Thus saith the Lord to his aanointed, to bCyrus, whose right hand I have cholden, to dsubdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the etwo leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

2 I will go before thee, and make the acrooked places straight: I will bbreak in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

3 And I will give thee the atreasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy bname, am the cGod of Israel.

4 For Jacob my aservant’s sake, and Israel mine belect, I have even ccalled thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

5 ¶ aI am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

 

[Dennis Tate]

Here was one of my own major problems with the ideas of the Christian Bible that I feel I was led to as an answer to many of my own issues and questions.

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/gay/christian-andreason.html#a04h

h. Who goes to heaven?
In the end ... believe it or not (sigh of relief), everyone gets to come home! Heaven is a place of ultimate LOVE. When we have learned how to become individuals that base our entire existence and consciousness around manifesting LOVE, we then become capable of entering the domain of the higher Realms of Heaven. If we do not practice Love, we can only go so far and we will be made to incarnate somewhere out there in God's super Universe again and again (unlimited times) until we learn.

I now have seen powerful evidence that we are living in a multiverse.....
time is not confined to being one straight line but instead branches and looks more like the limbs and / or roots of a tree.....
and yes... eventually everybody is led to a heavenly higher vibrational thought and behaviour pattern... so that we can fit in
in the higher vibrational "heavenly" realms of the afterlife.

 

[Dywyddyr]

pray and ask for YHWH and / or Messiah Yeshua - Jesus or the G-d of Abraham, (whoever you feel more comfortable with)

Would praying to the Easter Bunny work? How about Winnie the Pooh? Or Darth Vader?
You really don't understand what an atheist is, do you?
Why would an atheist pray to a deity that we don't believe exists?
Are you aware that praying has been scientifically demonstrated to have zero effect?

I now have seen powerful evidence that we are living in a multiverse.....

No, you haven't.

time is not confined to being one straight line but instead branches and looks more like the limbs and / or roots of a tree.....

Evidence?

and yes... eventually everybody is led to a heavenly higher vibrational thought and behaviour pattern... so that we can fit in in the higher vibrational "heavenly" realms of the afterlife.

Nonsense.

 

[Dennis Tate]

Would praying to the Easter Bunny work? How about Winnie the Pooh? Or Darth Vader?
You really don't understand what an atheist is, do you?
Why would an atheist pray to a deity that we don't believe exists?
Are you aware that praying has been scientifically demonstrated to have zero effect?


No, you haven't.

Evidence?

Nonsense.

So you are scared to try this????????

Interesting!!!!!!!!

Would you be interested in my explanation for the following rather bold statement that was made by a near death experiencer?

Or would you like to explain a simple way to pay off the national debt of the USA or Canada?

Dr. Kevin Zadai, Prayer Secrets Level 1, Warrior Notes School of Ministry, lesson 4 :
... "Jesus said that this unbelieving world is not going to accept you, but He said, “Do not fear, for I have overcome the world.” What is it that is bothering you today? You might not think that you have access to the Father, but it has been provided to you. You might think that you cannot just go to the Father and ask Him for something. The first thing you should ask the Father is to open your eyes. Your relationship with God is going to drive out fear. You have to grasp that God is not limiting you. He has never limited you. The Holy Spirit came on the Day of Pentecost and took the ceiling off. You can go as high and as far as you want.

If you would believe, God would give you the ability to completely pay off our national debt. God has a way of paying off our debt in our country. There is a way to do it. God knows that secret. But instead of focusing on our country, what about focusing on your bills? What does the Holy Spirit want to tell you by pulling back a veil that will cause you to be debt-free within the year? That will happen if you believe. The Holy Spirit has so much more for you, but you have limited Him. Because you have limited Him, He can’t speak to you. Because of that, people that are prophetic can’t come to you and confirm what God has said because you won’t hear it.

You can trust God. Relationships that you are having trouble with can be resolved tomorrow morning. If you accept what God is saying, the Spirit of God will enforce a blessing in your life to the point where you will see your family members and friends start to respond. " (Dr. Kevin Zadai, Prayer Secrets Level 1, Warrior Notes School of Ministry, lesson 4 )

 

[origin]

If you call yourself a true Atheist.....
then you would not mind taking the "Cyrus test" that I personally did back in 1990?

I doubt there are many atheists or agnostics who call themselves 'real atheist', whatever that is. Many Christians identify themselves as christians because it is central to who they are. I don't believe in Gods but that is not central to who I am. That particular belief is not really that important to me. My lack of belief in Gods seems to be more important to you than to me, which seems odd. I tend to believe things supported by evidence, if there is no evidence for something it is not really worth spending time pondering it.
Almost everything you have written has been unevidenced belief. IMO that's fine, believe whatever you want as long as your beliefs don't hurt anyone.

 

[Write4U]

Or would you like to explain a simple way to pay off the national debt of the USA or Canada?

C'mon Dennis, you can do better than that. Capitalist spirituality? Pray and the National debt will magically disappear?

I posted this before but to date it is the most penetrating critique of religion still.

Warning crude language.

 

[Dywyddyr]

So you are scared to try this????????

Why is that every time someone provides an argument against your beliefs you decide it's because they're scared?

Would you be interested in my explanation for the following rather bold statement that was made by a near death experiencer?

Not really, given that every "explanation" you've provided so far has been utter drivel.

Or would you like to explain a simple way to pay off the national debt of the USA or Canada?

Just like this.

 

[Dennis Tate]

I doubt there are many atheists or agnostics who call themselves 'real atheist', whatever that is. Many Christians identify themselves as christians because it is central to who they are. I don't believe in Gods but that is not central to who I am. That particular belief is not really that important to me. My lack of belief in Gods seems to be more important to you than to me, which seems odd. I tend to believe things supported by evidence, if there is no evidence for something it is not really worth spending time pondering it.
Almost everything you have written has been unevidenced belief. IMO that's fine, believe whatever you want as long as your beliefs don't hurt anyone.

One truly impressive Theoretical Physicist that I met on another forum made the following assertion that sounded logical to me.

AboveAlpha said: ↑
OK....first of all...I do not as you state..."choose not to believe in a god"...end quote gophangover.

I am not an Atheist.....I am AGNOSTIC.

As anyone who follows the Scientific Method worth their salt should be.

And I also do not...as you state....."refuse to consider the possibility that you were made for a purpose beyond that of turning into worm food at your death."...end quote gophangover.

An AGNOSTIC a person who IS OPEN TO ANYTHING....but at the same time an AGNOSTIC understands that just because something is POSSIBLE.....does not mean that it is PROBABLE or IMPROBABLE.

Whether something is PROBABLE or IMPROBABLE is determined by what amount of EVIDENCE or NOT can be gathered using the SCIENTIFIC METHOD.

Now even if there might be a huge amount of EVIDENCE gathered by using the SCIENTIFIC METHOD.....and before it an even be called or defined as EVIDENCE it must be checked many times by using aspects of the scientific method such as DOUBLE BLIND PROOFS.....CONTROL GROUPS.....CROSS REFERENCING....PIER REVIEW.....ETC.

Now let's say a HYPOTHESIS such as.....The Earth is Round....is put forth.

At this point it is a Hypothesis only and not even a THEORY as to become a THEORY as least some EVIDENCE must be garnished using the Scientific Method.

So let's say the year is 1500 BCE and it is fairly well known that the ancient Egyptian Engineers, Astronomers and Mathematicians were fairly certain that the Earth was round even if they many times had to feign ignorance of this as to not upset certain very religious Pharaohs who thought themselves to be GODS.

So the Engineers, Astronomers and Mathematicians using a rudimentary form of the scientific method gathered up enough EVIDENCE to be able to change what was once an HYPOTHESIS into a THEORY.

Now at this point the Earth being round is just a THEORY even though they had quite amount of evidence to be fairly certain of this....and at one time and this even stretches into Modern Day Science Methodology.....when a THEORY has obtained such a massive amount of properly gained EVIDENCE to such a point that PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS have been developed using a THEORY....after a great amount of time has passed such a THEORY would be labeled a FACT.

Now...for all intents and purposes the Egyptian's and Mayan's and Chinese....and several other very Advanced Civilizations for their era the converting the THEORY that the Earth is ROUND into a FACT....was well justified.

HOWEVER....in the MODERN ERA and use of the SCIENTIFIC METHOD.....we now only convert THEORIES into FACTS....when a MATHEMATICAL PROOF has been developed.

An example...?
..........

 

[Dennis Tate]

C'mon Dennis, you can do better than that. Capitalist spirituality? Pray and the National debt will magically disappear?

I posted this before but to date it is the most penetrating critique of religion still.

Warning crude language.

Basically...... yes.....

 

[Dennis Tate]

Why is that every time someone provides an argument against your beliefs you decide it's because they're scared?

Not really, given that every "explanation" you've provided so far has been utter drivel.

Just like this.

I think that you are labelling all of this evidence "utter drivel" because you are scared of the implications of what this all means?

At first I was rather scared of this myself.....
to a degree I still am.

https://www.near-death.com/psychology/triggers.html

Psychological Triggers of Near-Death Experiences
By Kevin R. Williams, B.Sc.
1.Brain Seizures
2.Brain Stimulation
3.Dreams
4.Extreme Gravity
5.Extreme Meditation
6.Extreme Stress
7.Falling from Heights
8.Hypnosis
9.Orgasm
10.Psychomanteum
11.Mental Dysfunction

The fact that there are many ways to access whatever it is that seems to be connected to the right temporal lobe of the human brain does not necessarily debunk what these people are seeing but... could in fact turn out to be verification for a common experience that may be a valid brush with higher invisible dimensions as explained by String Theory?

 

[Dywyddyr]

One truly impressive Theoretical Physicist that I met on another forum made the following assertion that sounded logical to me.

So who actually is this theoretical physicist?
He's not very well versed on what atheism actually is, nor - apparently - aware of the huge difference between atheism and agnosticism.
He also doesn't seem particularly clever when it comes to the difference between theory and fact., among other things.
Far from being a "truly impressive Theoretical Physicist" he comes across as yet another keyboard wannabe.

 

[Dywyddyr]

I think that you are labelling all of this evidence "utter drivel" because you are scared of the implications of what this all means?

ANd back to the "scared" excuse again.
No, I'm labelling it drivel for one reason: it's drivel.

The fact that there are many ways to access whatever it is that seems to be connected to the right temporal lobe of the human brain does not necessarily debunk what these people are seeing but... could in fact turn out to be verification for a common experience that may be a valid brush with higher invisible dimensions as explained by String Theory?

More drivel.

 

[Dennis Tate]

So who actually is this theoretical physicist?
He's not very well versed on what atheism actually is, nor - apparently - aware of the huge difference between atheism and agnosticism.
He also doesn't seem particularly clever when it comes to the difference between theory and fact., among other things.
Far from being a "truly impressive Theoretical Physicist" he comes across as yet another keyboard wannabe.

He went by the online name of AboveAlpha and he introduce me to the idea of Multiverse Theory.

This is part of the MANY WORLDS THEORY.....but we have found that the Many Worlds Theory is too limited to account for Quantum Mechanics so we developed models of MULTIVERSAL THEORY which Many Worlds Theory is but a part of it.

In Multiversal Theory you have Many Worlds theory as a part of it but Many Worlds is but one Universal Baseline Reality Grouping with Infinite Numbers of Divergent Universal States of Reality that all have ONE SET of NATURAL PHYSICAL LAWS.

In Multiversal Theory we have our ONE set of Natural Physical Laws that govern the Infinite in Number Divergent Universal States of Reality where each one has a different version of you and I and everyone and everything else............but as well in Multiversal Theory there are also INFINITE IN NUMBER UNIVERSAL BASELINE REALITY GROUPINGS......where each Grouping has it's own completely different that our own Alternate Universal Natural Physical Laws.

Thus each BASELINE UNIVERSAL REALITY GROUPING.....which are INFINITE IN NUMBER.....each have within the INFINITE IN NUMBER DIVERGENT UNIVERSAL STATES OF REALITY.

So Infinite Groups of Infinite Versions.

AboveAlpha

 

[Dennis Tate]

ANd back to the "scared" excuse again.
No, I'm labelling it drivel for one reason: it's drivel.

More drivel.

You might want to do some research on the quality of the memories experienced by people who have a near death experience?


https://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/fulltext/S1364-6613(19)30312-2

NDE and Its Rich and Vivid Memory
It is now widely accepted that declarative memory is not crucial for consciousness. Many authors have shown the coexistence of profound deficits in long-term memory formation and conscious states (e.g., patients with advanced Alzheimer’s disease; [
80.
]), or the possibility to be conscious and responsive but under the influence of alcohol causing lapses of declarative memory for example. Similarly, some episodes of connected consciousness such as assessed by the IFT appear to rarely be followed by explicit recall postoperatively [
32.
]. By contrast, episodes of disconnected consciousness inherently rely on memory. Classical NDEs are thought to occur in near death states where brain processes are severely diminished; however, NDEs are subsequently described in great detail and firmly anchored in experiencers’ memory [
81.
]. Importantly, current research shows that the NDE memory can hardly be considered as typically invented because it contains a high amount of qualitative phenomenological characteristics such as contextual and sensorial details (e.g., remembering what one felt or thought during the event; [
15.
,
17.
,
81.
,
82.
]). It is this subjective experience when remembering that gives one the impression that a memory belongs to one’s own past [
83.
,
84.
,
85.
] – and is not invented. Using electroencephalography, Palmieri and colleagues [
15.
] further showed the presence of theta activity associated with the recall of NDE memories, as being suggestive of episodic memories of real experienced events. Although memory theories have difficulties explaining NDEs and their resulting rich memory [
17.
], an answer can be provided by theories demonstrating the importance of the medial temporal lobe for memory encoding and retrieval [
86.
,
87.
].

Obviously now that we humans have developed computer memories and DVD technology......
we should be able to wrap our minds around what may be happening in those Life Reviews of NDE fame?

 

[Dywyddyr]

He went by the online name of AboveAlpha and he introduce me to the idea of Multiverse Theory.

Oh great - an unsourced quote. And, somehow, you've decided that this guy is a "truly impressive Theoretical Physicist"?

 

[Dennis Tate]

Oh great - an unsourced quote. And, somehow, you've decided that this guy is a "truly impressive Theoretical Physicist"?

Why would a paragraph from this website article seem to you to be an "unsourced quote?"


https://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/fulltext/S1364-6613(19)30312-2

Near-Death Experience as a Probe to Explore (Disconnected) Consciousness

• Charlotte Martial
• Héléna Cassol
• Steven Laureys
• Olivia Gosseries

Open AccessPublished:January 22, 2020DOI:https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tics.2019.12.010

 

[Dywyddyr]

Why would a paragraph from this website article seem to you to be an "unsourced quote?"

Try again.
My unsourced quote remark refers to the quote from AboveAlpha - his name is even given in the quoted text from your post #13.

 

[Dennis Tate]

Try again.
My unsourced quote remark refers to the quote from AboveAlpha - his name is even given in the quoted text from your post #13.

My apologies... I thought that you meant the other quotation......sorry!

I read a lot of his writings Theoretical Physics and he impressed me as being quite capable of publishing a book on Multiverse Theory along with several of his colleagues from M.I.T., but... he did not give his name at that forum.

 

[Dywyddyr]

My apologies... I thought that you meant the other quotation......sorry!

I read a lot of his writings Theoretical Physics and he impressed me as being quite capable of publishing a book on Multiverse Theory along with several of his colleagues from M.I.T., but... he did not give his name at that forum.

And still no link...

 

[DaveC426913]

So you are scared to try this????????

... you are scared of the implications

Some members here have graduated from grade school, and are no longer motivated by threats of "scaredy-cat".

In the eyes of grown ups, such childish tactics reduce the poster's credibility to zero.

This is a board for grown ups. Make grown up arguments.