Afghanistan - What is the objective?

**nietzschefan** · 03-11-09, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by StrawDog

How will Canadian history books describe this conflict?

Basically:

NATO - Useless

U.S - Not our friends like we thought they were. We help them in Afghanistan, they traipse around in our arctic waters and do not acknowledge our sovereignty. With allies like this - who needs enemies?

A great learning experience for Canadian forces. Reformed our elite airborne Unit as a result (we lost them to the "press" in a clusterfuck Somali "Peacekeeping" mission gone bad), improved our JTF2, and got more money we desperately needed to upgrade our equipment.

Actually, a really good thing for the health of our country/sovereignty in the end. Really proud our how our guys did, they should be happy with what they accomplished - the one's I know, are proud and think it will be a good experience for the Canadian forces in the end, it's just tough losing buddies. We are probably going to be able to leave Afghanistan without lingering hatred and even some good PR with some Afgans in Kandahar province.

**iceaura** · 03-11-09, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by nietzscefan

I dunno was pretty nice of them to let you drive/fly/walk through their country to get to afganistan,

I meant friends to Afghanistan in general.

A government the Afghanis would prefer to negotiate with.

**spidergoat** · 03-11-09, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by nietzschefan

And exactly what created this mess. Get the fuck out of other people's countries.

The Soviet Union represented a significant threat to the US. It would have been a mistake to fight them directly like in Vietnam, but I don't see anything wrong with arming their opponents. You don't know if our intervention was what caused Osama Bin Laden to attack us. Other factors, such as Sayyid Qutb could have influenced him quite apart from events in Afghanistan. Sayyid Qutb's objections to the west were mostly cultural.

Anyhow, elements of the Taliban or supported by the Taliban attacked the US on 9/11, so it is our problem now. If the Taliban come back, they could again provide a base of support for very bad people. If the Taliban gain enough strength, they could achieve their goal of turning Pakistan into an Islamic Fundamentalist state under sharia law armed with nuclear weapons, which is very, very bad.

No country besides Switzerland keeps the fuck out of other people's countries, everyone spies on everyone, everyone seeks the upper hand. It's naive to think problems will go away if we just ignore them.

**StrawDog** · 03-11-09, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

Anyhow, elements of the Taliban or supported by the Taliban attacked the US on 9/11, so it is our problem now.

You do realize this is unfounded? Once again, please feel free to prove me wrong.

If the Taliban come back, they could again provide a base of support for very bad people.

Like the Addams family?

If the Taliban gain enough strength, they could achieve their goal of turning Pakistan into an Islamic Fundamentalist state under sharia law armed with nuclear weapons, which is very, very bad.

Why? When last did a Muslim nation, with or without nukes attack the US?

No country besides Switzerland keeps the fuck out of other people's countries, everyone spies on everyone, everyone seeks the upper hand. It's naive to think problems will go away if we just ignore them.

Note: Off topic

Correct. but lets sweep this under the carpet:

Israel runs one of the most aggressive and damaging espionage networks targeting the U.S., yet public discussion about it is almost nil.

Scratch a counterintelligence officer in the U.S. government and they'll tell you that Israel is not a friend to the United States.
This is because Israel runs one of the most aggressive and damaging espionage networks targeting the U.S. The fact of Israeli penetration into the country is not a subject oft-discussed in the media or in the circles of governance, due to the extreme sensitivity of the U.S.-Israel relationship coupled with the burden of the Israel lobby, which punishes legislators who dare to criticize the Jewish state.

(http://www.alternet.org/audits/130891)

**StrawDog** · 03-11-09, 04:22 PM

Why is this man not President? He is also asking why?

Imagine

by Ron Paul

Imagine for a moment that somewhere in the middle of Texas there was a large foreign military base, say Chinese or Russian. Imagine that thousands of armed foreign troops were constantly patrolling American streets in military vehicles. Imagine they were here under the auspices of “keeping us safe” or “promoting democracy” or “protecting their strategic interests.”

Shutting down military bases and ceasing to deal with other nations with threats and violence is not isolationism. It is the opposite. Opening ourselves up to friendship, honest trade and diplomacy is the foreign policy of peace and prosperity. It is the only foreign policy that will not bankrupt us in short order, as our current actions most definitely will. I share the disappointment of the American people in the foreign policy rhetoric coming from the administration. The sad thing is, our foreign policy WILL change eventually, as Rome’s did, when all budgetary and monetary tricks to fund it are exhausted.

(http://www.ronpaul.com/)

**spidergoat** · 03-11-09, 04:24 PM

You do realize this is unfounded? Once again, please feel free to prove me wrong.

It is so founded, it's common knowledge, it's not even controversial.

Like the Addams family?

Like the Manson family.

Why? When last did a Muslim nation, with or without nukes attack the US?

It would be the first time, and they would try to hide where it came from.

Correct. but lets sweep this under the carpet:

Israel runs one of the most aggressive and damaging espionage networks targeting the U.S., yet public discussion about it is almost nil.

I wouldn't expect anything less.

**StrawDog** · 03-11-09, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

It is so founded, it's common knowledge, it's not even controversial.

Then you should have no problem coming up with some solid substantiation?

It would be the first time, and they would try to hide where it came from.

Ahh. So you are saying there is NO precedent for the war of aggression against Islam?

I wouldn't expect anything less.

?

**spidergoat** · 03-11-09, 04:36 PM

The Taliban themselves are a terrorist organization, even if you ignore their alliance with Bin Laden. The US is at war with all Islamic terrorist organizations, not just Al Quida.

**StrawDog** · 03-11-09, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

The Taliban themselves are a terrorist organization,

No. The Taliban is not considered a terrorist organization. Neither by the US or EU.

even if you ignore their alliance with Bin Laden.

There is NO conclusive link between Bin Laden and the Taliban. Feel free to prove me wrong. Facts please.

The US is at war with all Islamic terrorist organizations, not just Al Quida.

If that is the case, the US must consider Islam a terrorist organization.

Further more, the only legal manner (in International Law) in which the US can go to war against alleged "Islamic Terrorist Organizations", is if they attack US interests at home or abroad. Afghanistan is not a US interest.

**spidergoat** · 03-11-09, 05:31 PM

Technically they are not considered a terrorist organization (officially), but they do harbor them, they did harbor Bin Laden and refused to extradite him. They are carrying out a campaign of terror in Afghanistan.

"The US is at war with all Islamic terrorist organizations, not just Al Quida. ”

If that is the case, the US must consider Islam a terrorist organization.

That makes no sense, only a few Islamic organizations practice terrorism.

The Taliban did provide a safe haven for Al Quida, they do currently practice terrorism, their continued success in the region is a legitimate threat to the United States. It remains to be seen what we can really do about it, not every member of the Taliban is a lost cause, but it would be a disaster for Afghanistan if they took over again. The Afghani people are forming militias against them, they are opposed by the government of Afghanistan, and it is our duty to help rebuild that country. That means opposing the Taliban.

**S.A.M.** · 03-11-09, 05:35 PM

You're just making it up as you go along aren't you?

Its going to be egg on your face when the Taliban regain Afghanistan with the blessing of the US.

There is no way around it, unfortunately.

**spidergoat** · 03-11-09, 05:38 PM

Are you going to be happy when the girls can't go to school and they start cutting people's heads off for reading books? You are an apologist for some of the worst scum of humanity. The decision not to list them as a terrorist organization was probably political, after all we did support them for a time. I doubt we can simply eliminate them, but we have a responsibility to keep them from power.

**StrawDog** · 03-11-09, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

Are you going to be happy when the girls can't go to school and they start cutting people's heads off for reading books? You are an apologist for some of the worst scum of humanity.

My friend, this is Western propaganda, to enable you to think non critically about what is really (nefarious) US global geostrategy. Lets just agree that you have no clue, experience or understanding of Muslim customs and culture.

The decision not to list them as a terrorist organization was probably political, after all we did support them for a time. I doubt we can simply eliminate them, but we have a responsibility to keep them from power.

You can`t unf%@k something up by f%@king it up even more.

**spidergoat** · 03-11-09, 05:57 PM

It is not possible to fuck up Afghanistan more than the Taliban did.

**StrawDog** · 03-11-09, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

It is not possible to fuck up Afghanistan more than the Taliban did.

And where did this Taliban come from?

**S.A.M.** · 03-11-09, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

Are you going to be happy when the girls can't go to school and they start cutting people's heads off for reading books? You are an apologist for some of the worst scum of humanity. The decision not to list them as a terrorist organization was probably political, after all we did support them for a time. I doubt we can simply eliminate them, but we have a responsibility to keep them from power.

Maybe they could just starve everyone and bomb them from the air. Lock them in a ghetto. Shoot at their kids.

That advanced enough for you?

The US started with a culture where natives were killed simply for existing and slaves were worked to death. And this was the actions of the educated elite. You guys need to leave Afghanistan be. Clearly whatever you have done for the last 30 years has only taken them downhill. Whatever they do by themselves can't be worse.

**Baron Max** · 03-11-09, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by S.A.M.

Whatever they do by themselves can't be worse.

While Europe and the white race progressed, with medicines and technology and buildings and highways, Afghanistan struggled in tribal wars and conflict and have virtually nothing to show for any of it. It's hard to feel any sympathy for a people who are so backward and still want to force their fellows to remain that backwards.

Baron Max

**DiamondHearts** · 03-11-09, 06:36 PM

Afghanis don't want an Islamic state? Are you serious?

You obviously have never been to Afghanistan, nor are acquainted with the ground reality. Imperialists always believe they are liberators, regardless of what their subjects believe.

You need only visit any city in Afghanistan, what I stated is 100% view from the Afghani common people. You can choose to believe it or not, it is not like I nor the Afghanis care of what you people think.

BTw, Cheski, next to Americans and Russians, Israelis are the most hated country in Afghanistan. We all know what Israel wants in the region is to weaken sovereign Muslim nations. Their policy has always been this way.

**Baron Max** · 03-11-09, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by DiamondHearts

Afghanis don't want an Islamic state? Are you serious?

Islamic state? That's where women have to cover up their bodies and faces in public? Where girls are not permitted to go to school? Where men can beat their wives without the slightest reprimand? Ahh, that Islamic state?

Baron Max

**StrawDog** · 03-11-09, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by Baron Max

While Europe and the white race progressed, with medicines and technology and buildings and highways, Afghanistan struggled in tribal wars and conflict and have virtually nothing to show for any of it. It's hard to feel any sympathy for a people who are so backward and still want to force their fellows to remain that backwards.

Baron Max

Even if that statement contained elements of truth regarding tribal conflict, it is not up to Western Imperialism and geo-strategy to effect change via war or arming preferred factions, to establish Western norms.