Most recent posts try to excuse or blame Israel for it actions in Lebanon. Lets try something different in this thread. Before the war in Lebanon started I made several suggestions, as I do not think the policy of either side is in their long term interest. I think Israel should adopt more purely defensive means to protect it citizens. I pointed out that: It has used CIWS to defend its ships for more than 30 years and could deploy them near urban centers. They can shoot down super-sonic sea skimmers in their modern form. Zero arching sub-sonic missiles would find their targets. Israel even has some US Patriot anti-ICBM capacity, should it come to that, but needs many of these cheaper CIWS defenses for smaller towns. I also suggested that modern computers and cheap radars could guide automatic counter fire batteries to "shred any living thing"* that happened to be near the site of the rockets launched from Gaza. Even in WWII, prior to radar, three acoustic sensor located the source of enemy fire (by time of sound arrival). The 155-caliber mobile artillery US has supplied Israel was designed to "shoot and scoot" for this reason when it was thought it would be used against the USSR in Europe, but in current use it can safely remain at a fixed site and with "forward observers" repeatedly lay rounds within meters of each other on the aim point. The fact that Israel does not chose to protect it its citizens by these and other means, indicates that Israel, like its enemy, is more interested in killing the enemy than saving Israeli lives. The relative birth rates show that even with a 20 to 1 kill ratio in Israel's favor, in the end the Biblical Armageddon will be the result, with millions dead. - Israel and much of the ME destroyed, unless there is a change in policy. I.e. Offense is not the best defense, in this case, if you take a longer view. Israel will lose even the support of the US if the ME does go up in flames: If the ME goes up in flames all will be the losers, the world economy will collapse as US dollar will folds, wiping out most advanced economies. Dollar will fold as the economy of the US is built on consumers, willing and able to spend, but when oil is in such short supply that it must be rationed, Wal-Mart etc. will close its doors, North Carolina will not sell furniture, etc. Even the chaos of total social collapse may occur if well armed, but hungry, bands can not be controlled. Too little food is locally produced in US and its "suburban infrastructure" is ill designed to cope with a serious shortage of liquid fuel. Certainly, if even a small part of this happens, US support for Israel will end and Israel will be destroyed, but not before making millions of dead "martyrs." Israel was created on others lands but so was the US and it certainly now has the right to exist and defend itself. I am only asking how it should do so and asking for others to try to answer in this thread, as I have. ------------------------- *Counter battery fire made with in seconds after flame out of the rocket incomming from Gaza, well before it even reaches peak altitude is easily possible. Stop the current routine "preventive shelling" of empty lots and the associated killing of innnocents.
Excellent thread idea and post BillyT. The whole Israel-Palestine problem is a horrible mess that in agreement with you I don't think either side has handled in a fashion that is in thier long term best interest. A defensive stance forthe Israelis would absolutely be a better alternative to thier current policy but a viable alternative is also needed for the Palestinians that are now forced to live under Israeli rule (which we know is far from egalitarian). Until Palestinians get a real fair shake there will not be peace.
You are trying to be funny, but I also suggested this in a slightly different form (no dogs however). - I think a simple pair of fences, only couple of meters high, made of wire, one on the 1967 border line and the other parallel to it inside Israel about 30m distant from the first would be very useful for a few generations. The fences are to keep children, too young to read warning signs etc. from either side out of the mine field between the fences. Humor is always welcome, but I think this may be more serious for all advanced countries than most can believe, if US economy tanks with too little oil to maintain the suburban infrastructure it has built on cheap gas.
That is so obviously true I failed to state it. Thanks. I am sure the international community could better afford to set up and assist for a decade or two a viable Palestine state at much less cost than a collapse of the US dollar, which is where we seem to be heading. There are many legal precedents, in the South Seas and else where for protectorates. I think East Timor may be one also. Not sure, but your point is well taken and relatively easy to achieve.
No im serious. 100' wall. 20' thick. Think of the jobs that would be created. The only way for peace in that region is to keep everyone away from each other.
I agree with last sentence, at least until a generation grows up on both sides without fear of the other, but minefield between wire fence would cost 99.9% less and be MORE effective. Have you ever done any rock-wall scaling by ropes and “pitons” - I have, when younger. "Repelling down" again is worth the climb. Your wall would require constant 24 hour patrol - too expensive both to build and operate.
Israel should build a wall like that between East and West Germany and withdraw from the occupied territories. Anyone that comes over the wall will be killed. If any extremist settlers want to stay, that's their problem, they will no longer be protected. I think that's wrong. These technological defense systems are not completely reliable. I think some of these are already deployed, but they are not a comprehensive defense.
"As history since Hiroshima shows, the best, perhaps the only, way to curb war is to deter it with such overwhelming force as to turn it from a struggle into suicide. The best way to mitigate it is to use all possible means to bring it to a speedy end... Martin Van Creveld" Only works with people who are afraid to die. This is one aspect about Muslims that the West and Israel fail to understand.
And they insist on having their way, and they are willing to die killing us, how should we deal with them, if we don't become Moslem the kill us, if we become the wrong sect of Moslem, they kill us, if we don't want to kill Israelis they want to kill us, if were don't get out of the middle east they want to kill us, if we don't pay them protection money they want to kill us, it seems the only answer to them is to kill us, now Sam tell me how do you deal with a mind set that want to die if it don't get it way?
Killing wall crossers is pretty much automatic if the mine field border I suggest were selected. How do you propose to be sure to kill all "wall crossers" on a dark night along a long border wall? The old CIWS systems did sometimes jam, but modern ones, especially if firing rate were slightly reduced (no need for the high rate of fire required for high assurance stopping a super sonic sea skimmer*) should be 100% reliable agains slow arching high Gaza rockets, certainly 1,000% more relaible than Israel's current "defense" of the citys by trying to kill the enemy. - That just seems to make more enemy will to die. ----------- *You have at least 40 seconds to stop Gaza rocket, not only five as when the mach 3 sea skimmer pops up over the horizons at two meters altitiude. Also you do not need to slew the gun much as you already know the general direction from which it will come. I.e. with a modern CIWS, knocking down 100% is easy and relaible. Support you infered claim that what Israel is currently doing is better protection for Israelis.
Perhaps dogs in an inner fence area is a good idea after all. I.e. non- Israel area -------------------------------------Two meter wire fence along 1967 border line Mine field area --------------------------------------- ~ 30 meter set back inside Israel (low no dog jump fence) killer dogs area --------------------------------------Two meter wire fence 50m from 1967 border Israel safe area
I was about to start a new thread in the politics forum along similar lines but decided to post here instead. When I saw the thread title: "What should Israel do?" I thought of the question in a different way. The way I see it is that the middle east is in a hopeless bind. To sum up what I am sure others have said before the problem can be simply stated as a question ; "Where should Israel go?" Is there empty lands any where on the planet that can support a nation with out threatening the title to that land of other nations? [ No, is the answer I guess] To me it is obvious that Israel's occupation of someone elses land is the main cause of grievance. With out getting into recriminations etc. the problem seems so simple, yet the answer to the problem is extremely complex and difficult. I see that the only solution is an evolution of tolerance that is needed on all sides. So Israel has it's back against the wall and is fighting for it's survival as it knows that there is no where it as a nation would be welcome so it may as well stay where it is.. [ would be the over all attitude I assume ] Of course the same question can be asked of the Palestinian nation as well, "Where should they go?" Billy T, sorry for the thread diversion, and BTW I agree with your suggested defensive approach to the immediate or short term situation. How ever I wonder how this problem of post ww2 occupation of someone elses land can be resolved. Maybe I have over simplified and shown my ignorance. If so I would gladly wish to be corrected.
Northern Australia's fairly empty. I'd feel bad doing that to the Aussies though, they're a good lot. Next up we have Atlantis. I'm sure we could commission a few cruise ships to take them there and drop them off. New York could probably take an extra few million, too.
What Should Israel Do? Detonate a nuke in Jerusalem and remove forever that monument to human failure. Preferrably a non-radio-active nuke. I'd only want a 30 mile perimeter of the city erased.
to QQ (and others): Glad you also feel Israel should adopt a more “purely defensive” policy, as I am suggesting, and drop its current idea that "offense is the best defense." I also agree with you that there is no option, (despite the great open expanses of Austral*) for moving Israel to new location. The Jewish people have long though of the area they are now in as their natural homeland. I believe that for centuries, something like "Next year in Jerusalem" has been a greeting wish or statement of optimism common among them.** ------------------------- *As I think state of Israel is guilty of several war crimes, sending Israeli leadership there would be in keeping with Australia's origins/history as a destination for criminals. **My best friend in high school was the rabies’ son. I have even attended the rabies’ Yuan Kippur diner once, where his younger brother gave the traditional speech, which begins: "Why is this night different from all other nights? ...", I have learned how to put on "tifilin" (two small black boxes with leather straps) to make the symbol for God in my fingers etc. I have served as "shickengle." - The family’s gentile who could turn off the lights etc after dark on Friday. -Easy job, except after late Friday afternoon fishing trips, when only I could clean the fish. I admire and know more than most non-Jews about that humanistic and non-proselytizing faith. In general, I admire all cultures that promote learning and the Jewish culture may well be at the top of that group. (I have miss-spelled some Yiddish words phonetically that I have never seen written from very old memories - perhaps a real Jew will spell them correctly for me.) I am, however, surprised and outraged by the current actions of the State of Israel. Israel’s leaders are, IMHO, in violation of the teaching of their faith, perhaps even more than GWB is in violation of American ideals.
Years ago I read some where that Australia, in particular the state of Tasmania [ most southern state ~island ] was considered as a potential settlement for post WW2 displaced persons of Jewish faith [ race] prior to the eventual exodus to it's current location. It was a book on the issue of displaced persons and unfortunatley I can not recall Author or title. I believe even at the time the Australian Government was not overly concerned with the idea, as it was desparate for migrants to come to Australia any way. However I would think that any attempt to build an independant state of Israel would be seriously rejected by said government. Please treat the above as bordering on gossip. It is also worth considering that the future of USA foriegn policy should also be more defensive than it's current. I sometimes think that the Japanese have it almost right. A little isolationism and strong ecconomic influencers and strong defensive posture. The Israel government seems to be reacting in similar ways to that of the USA government. Thus Israel has USA sanctions by default. [ I don't mean to imply that the killing of innocent civilians is USA policy either BTW] It does appear that Israel is less concerned with this issue of collateral damage though.
Zakaryia here is a time line what do you call the green highlighted sections, I call them diplomacy and good faith, especially Aug. 15 - Aug. 24, 2005 Concise Overview of Recent Israeli-Palestinian History Nov 2, 1917 British issued the Balfour Declaration, viewed by Jews and Arabs as promising a “National Home” for the Jews in Palestine. 1936-1939 Arab Revolt led by Haj Amin Al-Husseini. Over 5,000 Arabs were killed according to some sources, mostly by British. Several hundred Jews were killed by Arabs. Husseini fled to Iraq and then to Nazi Germany. May 15, 1948 Israel War of Independence (1948 War). Declaration of Israel as the Jewish State; British leave Palestine; Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia declared war on Israel. Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian invasion began. April 3, 1949 Armistice - Israel and Arab states agree to armistice. Israel gained about 50% more territory than was originally allotted to it by the UN Partition Plan. [/COLOR] Oct. 29, 1956 Suez Campaign. In retaliation for a series of escalating border raids as well as the closure of the straits of Tiran and Suez canal to Israeli shipping, and to prevent Egyptian use of newly acquired Soviet arms in a war, Israel invades the Sinai peninsula and occupies it for several months, with French and British collaboration. May, 1964 PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) founded with the aim of destroying Israel. The Palestinian National Charter (1968) officially called for liquidation of Israel. May, 1967 Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser closes the straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping and dismisses UN peacekeeping force. Negotiations with US to reopen the Straits of Tiran fail. June 5-10,1967 6-day war . Israel destroys the Egyptian air force on the ground, conquers and occupies Sinai and Gaza, then conquers the West Bank from Jordan, and Golan Heights from Syria. UN resolution 242 called for Israeli withdrawal, establishment of peace. Oct. 6, 1973 Yom Kippur War (October War). In a surprise attack on the Jewish day of atonement, Egypt retook the Suez canal and a narrow zone on the other side. Syria reconquered the Golan Heights. Following massive US and Soviet resupplying of the sides, Israel succeeded in pushing back the Syrians and threatening Damascus. In Sinai, the IDF crossed the Suez Canal and cut off the Egyptian Third Army. [COLOR=Red[COLOR=SeaGreen]]March 26, 1979 Peace treaty signed between Egypt and Israel.[/COLOR] [/COLOR] June 7, 1981 Israel destroys Iraqi nuclear reactor in daring raid. Oct. 6, 1981 Egyptian President Anwar Sadat is assassinated while on the reviewing stand of a victory parade. June 6, 1982 Massive Israeli invasion of Lebanon to fight PLO. Sept. 13, 1993 Oslo Declaration of Principles - Israel and PLO agree to mutual recognition. Sept 28, 1995 Oslo Interim Agreement signed. Palestinian Authority to be established. Nov. 4, 1995 Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin assassinated by right-wing Israeli fanatic Yigal Amir. Rabin is replaced by Shimon Peres June, 1996 Right-Wing Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu elected Prime Minister in Israel, replacing Shimon Peres. Sept, 1996 "Al-Aksa tunnel riots - Arab sources spread the false rumor that a gate opened in an underground tunnel tourist attraction by the Israeli government, endangered the foundations of the Al-Aqsa mosque. This caused several days of rioting and numerous casualties. Jan 18, 1997 Israel and Palestinians reach agreement on Israeli redeployment in the West-Bank city of Hebron Oct. 1998 Wye River Plantation talks result in an agreement for Israeli redeployment and release of political prisoners and renewed Palestinian commitment to correct its violations of the Oslo accords including excess police force, illegal arms and incitement in public media and education. May 17, 1999 Israel elects Labor party leader and Former General Ehud Barak as Prime Minister in a landslide. Barak promises rapid progress toward peace. March, 2000 Israeli-Syrian peace negotiations fail when Hafez Assad rejects an Israeli offer relayed by US President Clinton in Geneva. Sept. 28, 2000 Palestinians initiated riots after Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount, which is also the location of the Haram as Sharif holy to Muslims. Sept. 11, 2001 Terror attacks on World Trade Center in NYC and the Pentagon carried out by fanatic Islamic Al-Qaida group headed by Osama Bin Laden initiate US war on terror. Israel and Palestinians agree to a cease fire, but it is not implemented. Feb 6, 2001 Right-wing Likud leader Ariel Sharon elected Prime Minister in Israel replacing Ehud Barak and promising "peace and security." March-April 2002 Israel conducts operation Defensive Wall in the West Bank, following a large number of Palestinian suicide attacks on civilian targets. Saudi peace initiative adopted at Beirut summit. Jan 28, 2003 Elections in Israel give wide margin (40 seats) to right wing Likud party, returning PM Ariel Sharon for another term. March 19,2003 US begins invasion of Iraq by a strike against a building where Saddam Hussein and other leaders are meeting. Baghdad falls, April 9. July 9, 2004 International court of Justice (ICJ) rules that the Israeli security barrier violates international law and must be torn down. Nov 11, 2004 Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat dies. Jan 9, 2005 Mahmoud Abbas elected President of the Palestinian National Authority. Jan 10, 2005 Ariel Sharon forms unity government with Labor and United Torah Judaism parties in Israel. April 2005 Ariel Sharon visits US President George Bush at his Texas ranch. Syrian Army leaves Lebanon, officially ending Syrian occupation. May 26, 2005 Mahmud Abbas visits US President George Bush at the White House, an important symbolic gesture signaling US backing for Abbas and Palestinian aspirations. Israel releases 400 Palestinian prisoners including some with blood on their hands. Britain confirms "low level" negotiations with Hamas. June, 2005 Violence flares in Gaza. US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice visits Palestinian and Israeli leaders to ensure coordination of Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. Israeli PM Ariel Sharon and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas meet in Jerusalem June 21. Sharon announces that Palestinians have promised to coordinate regarding Gaza withdrawal. PM Abbas postpones Palestinian legislative elections in order to change the election law, amidst growing concern that Hamas will trounce Abbas's Fatah party in the elections. Lebanese elections give a decisive majority to the opposition to Syria, led by Saad Hariri, son of slain leader Rafiq Hariri. Aug. 15, 2005 Disengagement - Israeli evacuation of Gaza settlements and four West Bank settlements began on August 15 and was completed August 24.
