Did Pres. Obama throw Israel under the bus?

What, in your opinion, is the Israeli equivalent of the oil? What is it that Israelis are selling to Americans? What do Americans gain by their alliance with Israel [and isn't it ironic that both Israel and Saudi Arabia have no separation of church and state? It would be amazing to see the king of Saudi make similar proclamations justifying racism and religious exceptionalism and getting standing ovations in the US Congress]

The whole 29 standing ovations of the US Congress for Netanyahu is reminiscent of this:

Or do you believe that performance is in the American or the Israeli interest? Israel just officially became South Africa yesterday and the US Congress stood and applauded the phenomenon. Do you know how exceptionally stupid and ignorant it makes Americans look to the ziocaine free world? This is going to be the mother of bad endings for Americans and believe me, they will not go down alone.

 

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Oh. Well, it's nice for you to think you found a reason to leave out the other kinds of "aid" the US gives Israel, which I mentioned in my post.

You didn't comment on them because, to you, they aren't relevant to your comprehension skills, right? They just don't fit your paradigm.

I mean, how could any of this be relevant to the US-Israel alliance:
. . . the veto the US uses in the UN to prevent any condemnation by the rest of the international community, the support for a "two state" solution, and the general haste to follow orders from the Knesset like the good little pet the US is

 

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Thats not an issue anymore since the US Congress is now the US Knesset

Netanyahu: America sux and slobbers over Israeli feet

US Congress: <applause/standing ovation>

Netanyahu: We give a rats arse for what the US President says about Israeli settlements and the treaties we signed

US Congress: <thundering applause/standing ovation>

Netanyahu: Americans are all Zionists and will support Israel rather than their own President

US Congress : <chorus> Aye Aye Sir! <applause, standing ovation>

Netanyahu:Israel will forever be an apartheid state with racist laws and the US will meekly veto what we want them to veto in the UN

US Congress: <cheers, applause, standing ovation>

Netanyahu: The US is now officially a slave to the Zionist ambitions and will supply us with what we want when we want and anytime we want while we remain indifferent to how it affects American interests

US Congress: Netayahu for President! <and of course, applause, standing ovation>

World: Wow, Americans really are that stupid.

 

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Oh BS.

I was simply correcting the one assertion you made that was clearly wrong because I knew the number I posted included the Direct Military Aid.

The other assertions aren't simple or clear cut and can't be refuted without doing a lot more research (which I'm not overly inclined to do)

However a quick search finds this:

Which was followed by:

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=37572&Cr=palestin&Cr1

And

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

Arthur

 

yeah but sofia, they have been (virtually) accused of harbouring OBL by the US and have also had the come back from Alqueda's ally the taleban. Now how is that fair?!?

Some elements of the pakistani establishment probably knew of OBL's where abouts, obviously any1 who knew such info should have told the authorities

 

Oh noes! The belligerent troll has detected me! Whatever shall I do? Oh noes!

I'm challenged to think how any of the above is either "brownie points" or "brown nosing", I admit, so there you have me. Have no fear: I'm sure it makes sense in some world, somewhere. Meanwhile, do carry on your effete defense of the hyperbolic antagonist. I'm sure no thinking person could consider that brown nosing.

And while we're on the subject of thinking, arfie, maybe you could ponder the issue I raised. See if you can locate it in the posts, son. I wish you the best of luck.

 

Hey arf.

Actually, and as SG actually did say to you, that seems entirely fair: "If they want to wage war on us, we'll fight." Which is called self-defense, since no other stipulations were being given. How's that thinking going, old sock?

Adoucette got one on ya there, mate. Oh: sorry. You do know what counting is, don't you old boy? You can count, right? Lookit them figures.

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Hooo! I take it back. I just read the top most recommended comments for the WashPo article above and I could easily have written most of them!

Its only the US Congress that is ZOG, Americans are clearly paying attention

A few selections

And this was not a top post, but I thought it was funny

I did not realise Romney was a Mormon. Wow.

 

Since WWII, Americans have felt a close religious and political kinship with Israel (and I should note the early ties weren't nearly as strong as they became after 1967). Jews are fairly well-integrated and respected in their society, and it obviously reflects in their foreign policy to some degree as well. As far as what they get back from Israel, I believe they have received highly valuable economic, scientific, and military/intelligence cooperation which has often helped them in the region and around the world. They have traditionally seen Israel as a beacon of democracy and stability in the region and, right or wrong, they have written off the prospects of Arab countries doing the same thing anytime soon. So it's a deep cultural, historical and religious connection, and yes what I said about the Rapture is very true, it creates a giant blind spot in American politics which I believe will eventually backfire on anyone who tries to exploit it, including Israeli politicians.

Now whether these benefits are worth the costs of supporting an ally's continuing occupation, when very reasonable and secure alternatives exist which would better protect human rights for all parties to the conflict, I wouldn't personally want to pay that price.

Simply not true. Israel's founding declaration enshrines the nation's secularism, citizens' rights are equal regardless of race, religion or creed. I don't have any personal delusions that this is how things actually work in practice there, but in practice they don't work this way in America either. I'd like to know who's currently rotting in Israeli prisons for blasphemy, and then we can compare the situation to what's going on in Saudi Arabia. BTW on the subject of why Israel gets better treatment than Saudi Arabia, it helps not to kill thousands of American civilians and call them savages when they nail the killers.

I'm sure he'd get a standing ovation if he announced that his position was going to be put up for an open election. Or even if he announced "You know what? I had an epiphany over breakfast this morning- women should be allowed to drive too, gosh darn it!"

At some point, Americans will feel a bit of a crunch, and the correlation to diplomatic and financial support for Israel's policies will become more clear. At such a point, they will more thoroughly evaluate their own interests and act accordingly, and I believe a majority of Americans have already decided that however strongly they might wish to support Israel, they can't do so completely unconditionally. I hope it doesn't come to that point, but I expect if Israel doesn't make some form of reasonable compromise, the US won't back them ad infinitum.

If you're getting all stoked for a total national meltdown in America preceeding the end of support for Israel, i.e. "the mother of bad endings", I think you'll be in for many more decades of disappointment. There will be a gradual parting of ways in the relationship, and Israel will subsequently feel a crunch of its own, at which point it too will have some tough decisions to make.

 

I think you're quite delusional if you think Zionists in the US will be satisfied with a "gradual parting of the ways" - they haven't invested themselves so deep into the lifeblood of the US to shake hands and part amicably if they no longer get their way.

In India we have an idiom "asteen ka saanp" literally, the snake in your sleeve; which is a reference to allies who prey on you. They are only friendly as long as they are fed and comfortable but stop feeding them and they will destroy you.

This is what I see for the US-Israel relationship and after yesterday's show, I think it is inevitable.

 

If the US cut its funding and other forms of support to Israel, what on Earth could the "Zionists" do in response? Whatever money they provide to politicians can be replaced, it's not as if the US doesn't already have a huge pro-Palestinian movement with ample funds, despite supposedly living under the "Zionist" thumb this whole time, and there's no shortage of other causes which could distract their efforts and attention from the region altogether. Are you expecting Israel to nuke someone, America perhaps?

Israel's only hope for saving the relationship will be to appeal to Americans of a similar moral and political persuasion, unless it changes its own tune to more closely align with whatever direction America goes. Any attempts to bully with money and propaganda will backfire, it would provide people like you with legitimate ammunition so you don't come across as a conspiracy kook when you complain about them.

Addendum: I have to admit, with the vigourous backing Netanyahu is receiving from America's Congress, despite no perceptible shift in policy from where he stood two years ago, I'm not so sure Obama will still have the political will to hold back America's veto when the UN recognizes Palestine. I predicted Obama wouldn't use the veto, but if US Congress is essentially siding with a foreign leader against their own President, all bets are off. Regardless, I honestly don't see Americans willingly backing Israel much longer if Israel doesn't make some significant concessions, whether it happens under Obama's administration or the next one. The more oil prices rise and friction with the rest of the world grows, the more America will feel compelled to change course.

 

Hmm, and how will it backfire? Because the US Congress will put American interests before Israel? [hearkens back to Netanyahu spouting utter gibberish to standing ovations by the US Congress].

Nope I doubt it. Do you think at ANY point, Israeli politicians will put American interests before their own when the US Congress is so firmly in their pockets that it supports Israel over its own President?

I sincerely doubt it. If push comes to shove I think the US will sacrifice its Presidents before it will sacrifice Israel - I wouldn't be surprised if any President who opposed Israel would be conveniently assassinated by some Ayrab terrorist. Both Israel and the US consider extra-judicial assassinations as legitimate ROE

I am waiting for September. To see if Obama calls Abbas' bluff and supports Palestinian statehood - in which case Netanyahu will invade the West Bank - or vetoes the resolution becoming the sole supporter of apartheid Israel. I'm actually hoping for the latter, less bloodshed [though Israel may provoke an intifada but Palestinians have always shown great self restraint compared to their mad dog neighbour] and it will put the nail in the coffin of any misguided notions that the US can be an arbiter for peace.

Yes that is essentially how I see it. But do you think if Obama does not veto the resolution, he can control Israeli expansion? What is he going to do? Defend Palestinians as he defended the Egyptians/Tunisians and Libyans? Oh wait, he didn't, did he? He's more likely to send cluster bombs and white phosphorus to wipe out the 3 million Palestinians still under occupation in the West Bank.


“A passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld.

And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government.

Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.”

Washington 1779

Almost prescient, eh?

 

Wow. A better description for Pakistan's relationship with the United States I couldn't imagine. Interesting. I'll use that in some of the other political forums I frequent. Thanks, Sam.

 

Is it a question of interests, then, on the reverse scenario, which I must presume is the parallel you intend to draw? You graze over Bork's point with a single, unconsidered sentence and march on into fresh new fields of propaganda. Think what you like, but as I survey your comments over the past few pages, I am inclined to think you have well absorbed the philosophy of Goebbels. I suppose that deserves a form of congratulations.

And: yes, yes; you may find that upsettingm but keep in mind I'm only saying what everyone else, including most of the moderators, are thinking. Sure, that's a reference to popularity, but then again it should bear on your thinking at some point.

 

What does that even mean? Is there a point there somewhere which has anything to do with the topic under discussion?

Today is the turning point of the Israel - Palestine conflict. Or yesterday, when the US Congress applauded Netahyahu for opposing Obama. Because unless you are completely blind, deaf or dumb, you can no longer pretend that the Israel Lobby is not influential in the US Congress to the extent of being more influential than the President of the USA.

It is moreover, a day on which the most secular and leftist anti-Zionist and the most conservative critical and determined Zionist I know, are both on the same page - they have both faced the reality that lies before them

This is the same Goldberg who trashed the Mearsheimer report and is now recognising its reality

Who knows, you may eventually get there as well. Not holding my breath in any case.

Unfortunately the moderators have as little influence on the coming reality as you do.

 

As I understood it all votes of the GA have to then go through the SC for ratification

 

Your article failed to point out any differences between what Netanyahu said and Obama's position.

 

Sorry I meant to post this, for some reason my mouse has been giving me problems with copy paste. Its damn irritating

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/index.html