Counterproposal: Don't dress like a slut...

do you really think i'm trying to promote rape? i have a girlfriend i get to worry about when she goes to the city with friends etc. am surprised how aggressive you are. i'm saying i understand why people would rape people, and i understand how seeing a scantily clad woman would incline a person towards raping her, especially given the nature of people being animals. are you suggesting rapists rape people on a whim? is it purely opportunity? there's always reasons, i'm trying to discuss them.

i don't endorse rape, its inconsiderate. i stand by the arguments i've made.
the high heels thing, that's something i've heard before, don't attack me over it. i thought it was a pretty well known thing. chemical reactions occur regardless of what kind of man you are, they aren't determined by your integrity.

the grenade thing wasn't comparing men to weapons. its saying when you do something you can be responsible for the consequences. dressing like a slut doesn't justify rape, but i feel it makes them more likely to rape you.

and of course i don't want chicks to wear burquas. there are heaps of clothes i would say aren't designed to get male attention. i'm only talking about the clothes some girls wear clubbing etc. you can see everything but their nipples and genitals. which i love by the way, most guys do. chicks can dress however they want, i believe it carries risks though.

you're exaggerating or misconstruing everything i say in your zeal to persecute anyone who doesn't share your hatred of rapists. i'm not sexist or immoral or an animal, just discussing the topic.

 

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If they weren't, the sexual instinct would have been so weak the human race would already have died out.

 

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(Insert title here)

Well, I can see why you wouldn't want to be seen that way.

Yeah, I've heard a few variations on that one.

In truth, something that surprises me is the number of people who say, "I'm not encouraging or condoning rape," turn around and do just that, and then wonder at the notion that someone would call you out on the conflict.

That would be even funnier than the high-heels bit, except it's kind of morbid.

You're trying to discuss the reasons?

Let's stop and think about that for a moment. You're trying to discuss the reasons people commit rape by focusing on a stroke fantasy that represents, in the end, a severe minority of rapes. I have attempted repeatedly to address the implications of the excuses put forward according to this scenario, and get nothing in response except a blind repetition of the excuses.

Yeah, there's that. Murder, for instance, is inconvenient.

Okay, for starters: high heels contribute more to a man's orgasm than a woman's. Secondly, a high heel doesn't have much effect on a woman's foot when it's dangling from her toe while she's on her back with her legs in the air. High heels are one of the greatest kink cliches ever.

Who and what a man is depends on each individual. For instance, high heels. The intellectual aspect overrides whatever automatic response that is supposed to turn me into a raping robot. Seriously, on a good day, they're a neutral factor. If I stop and notice them, they're a turn-off. Mostly because I have yet to meet a woman who thinks the damn things are comfortable. So I do wonder why she's wearing them.

Well, the problem with your comparison is that pulling the pin on a grenade essentially determines its eventual explosion. You could run around with rubber bands holding the trigger device in place, but still, that A leads to B in this case is a matter of design, physics, and intent. The grenade does not "choose" to explode.

There are, indeed, rapists who have no choice in the matter. We call them sociopaths or psychopaths, and try to keep them separated from society. The suggestion, however, that the average male has no choice in the matter only suggests that the average male should be locked away.

The problem with the whole "dressing like a slut makes them more likely to rape you" argument is that it fails entirely to address certain basic realities about rape. Again: the vast majority of women raped are assaulted by someone known to them.

So dressing like a slut doesn't actually have a whole lot to do with it. Which brings us to ....

So why don't you enumerate for us your rape-prevention dress code?

Anyway, I think this is about the sixth time I've posted the following, and I'm going to continue pressing the issue until one of these ("I'm not a") rape advocates actually answers the issue:

Given that going out on a date counts as slutting it up for some men, I would hope women never give this attempt to excuse sexual violence serious consideration ....

.... Just to cover a few excuses along these lines, in order to be safe from rape, women should not:

• Dress in any manner that might possibly sexually stimulate a male
• Consume any sort of intoxicant around a male
• Allow herself to be alone with any male
• Respond in any affirmative way to a male's general advances (don't give him the idea that he can ask you out in the first place)​

So take a shot at it, Codanblad. One of the reasons this whole "she was asking for it" excuse annoys people—well, okay, one of the reasons beside the obvious—is that it depends on such generalizations that it overlooks its own implications. Look at you: you've reduced the whole process of rape to something automatic.

Well, in what other ways was she asking for it? Accepting a date might suggest to a man that she wants him to fuck her. Being remotely intoxicated around a man might suggest she wants him to fuck her. Being alone with a man might suggest she wants him to fuck her. Not telling him to fuck off at the word "Hello" might suggest she wants him to fuck her.

Has it ever occurred to you that there is beauty among humans that doesn't lead to fucking?

And that's at the heart of it. While women are judged on their looks in matters of socialization, education, and hiring, apparently if they play along in the least, they're asking to be fucked.

Consider the implications of the "she was asking for it" argument you chose to defend and now stand by. Imagine for a moment, please, that women decide to take that argument seriously. You no longer get dates. If you're married, the only time you see your wife make any effort to show her beauty is for the five minutes before you shoot your load. Jesus, man, did you ever have one of those embarrassing moments when you asked a date, "What is that perfume?" and she said, "White Rain"? So think about that. The mere fact that she washed her hair might cause a man to become aroused. Hell, have you ever heard of "The Spanish Lady", one of the greatest pub songs of all time?

As I came back through Dublin City
At the hour of half past eight,
Who should I spy but the Spanish lady
Brushing her hair in the broad daylight?
First she tossed it, then she brushed it,
On her lap was a silver comb.
In all my life I ne'er did see
A maid so fair since I did roam.​

What I'm asking you to consider is what, beyond a woman's dress, might turn a man on. When I was in high school, there were these twins, see. And by popular standards, they weren't hot. One of them tried to be popular with the pop crowd, the other got along better with the art crowd. And the art one, she had an interesting wardrobe that pretty much hid her shape. Longjohns and a gypsy skirt, a t-shirt, long-sleeve pullover and jacket .... From both the physical and the psychospiritual, she was the more attractive one. The psychospiritual was clear. She wasn't as superficially oriented as her sister. She laughed more genuinely, as opposed to laughing on cue. Physically, though, while her sister showed off a little more, reserve won the day. I remember once I was sitting on the steps, looking up at her as she talked, and she turned to gesture, and for the briefest moment the perfect curve of the underside of her breast pressed through the layers of clothing, and in that moment, I really, really wanted her. And the physical response was not from anything that could remotely qualify as "slutting it up". Rather, it came as a result of her reserve, of hiding her form. So start with that. As you enumerate your rape-prevention dress code, consider that what you don't think of as overtly sexy will still turn men on.

But what else can a woman do, aside from how she dresses, that might turn a man on? Pretty much anything. It depends on the man. I mean, think about a scene from a cheap comedy:

Man: Hey, sweetheart. If I told you you had a wonderful body, would you hold it against me?

Woman: Fuck off.

Man: (to buddy as they watch her leave) She wants me.​

Now, every once in a while, I'll hear, "She wants me". And for the most part, it's a joke. But I would be lying if I said I've never seen someone who actually believes that cold, outright rejection is simply part of the game, her way of telling him how much she wants him.

So think about it: How she dresses provokes a man. Washing her hair provokes a man. Rejecting his advances provokes a man.

And there's always someone out there who will say she was asking for it.

I would suggest that if you do not wish to be included in a certain classification, you should not behave according to its identifying criteria. For instance, if you do not wish to be seen as a rape advocate, you should probably avoid statements like, "i agree with 'girls who dress like sluts are asking for it' ...", or comparing a man's decision to commit rape to a designed process that only fails according to a manufacturing error or circumstantial compromise.

In that context, though, I should note that it is interesting to see how men factionalize. There are those who identify against feminists who resent extreme depictions of men as robots eternally in pursuit of sexual gratification. And then there are those who are more than willing to depict men as robots as long as they get to justify rape.

Right. Whatever you say.

You're clearly sexist. Morality is variable. And apparently you're transgendered°.

Just think about the implications of what you're pushing. I know it all sounds great when you're looking through the narrow gap, but since this is the sort of thing that pertains to people's entire lives, perhaps you might consider giving it some deeper thought.
____________________

Notes:

° transgendered — Help us out. What was your physical state as birth? And how do you identify now? The confusion arises because of two seemingly contradictory statements:

• "i know men should act responsibly, but we're literally animals." (#119)

• "i'm not sexist or immoral or an animal, just discussing the topic." (#121)​

So help us out. Are you a man? Are you not? Did it just seem like a good line when you posted it, but not so good when it came to disclaiming yourself?

 

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Women are people. Maybe you think you can get away with objectifiying them and denigrating them, but I don't. BTW, that was a really lame attempt at weakening my argument, showing me that you have no honest or rational points to make on the subject.

Oh dear, that really is blame transference, and sounds like some throwback religious belief. It's the 21st century, wake up.

 

Share these thoughts with your girlfriend. Tell her how you understand it would be her fault if she went out in a short skirt and got fucked and beaten, and that you would have no sympathy for her.

Hopefully she would dump you and find a decent human to spend her time with. You are an abomination.

 

Wrong.

If a woman is attacked she must depend upon other men to help her, also, men must enforce her 'rights' through physical force, if necessary. Men are being bought into conflict with other men, all because of the corrupt desires of women, nurtured and encouraged by a power hungry economic elite.

 

Or take self-defence lessons.

"Corrupt desires of women"??

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What do you actually use in place of what would be thought processes in a human being?

 

What makes you think that a woman must be manipulating them to get attention? This might be a difficult concept for you to get your head around, but some of us happen to dress to express ourselves. Sometimes the clothes we like to wear are tight and show our female morphology. Deal with it.

So basicaly, according to your logic, we should all wear burqas, seeing as if you can see our female morphology, we're probably goading some poor innocnet male into raping us.

And if it's purely about uncontrolled sexual urges, why can't the man just go and sate his chemical lust by masturbating? And why do elderly women and pre-adolescent girls get raped??????

 

This and that

You know, Phlog, Roman tried to give me some advice earlier in this topic, and I probably should have taken it. Except, of course, one of our rape advocates insisted that the basis of Roman's advice was wrong, and, frankly, that was about all the encouragement I needed to keep trying to drive the point home.

That advice was, "He's using the wrong words to get you riled up .... It should be pretty obvious that the hyperbole is there to upset you."

And, in truth, Francois has done a pretty good job of pretending he sincerely believes the shit he's posting.

But I wanted to try to pass that advice along, sort of. Because I would suggest that DeepThought is desperately trying to tip his hand. I mean—

—that is the most hilariously absurd thing written so far in this topic. Okay, it's the funniest thing that isn't also sickeningly morbid. The morbid competitor came from Codanblad:

See, the thing about this is that once upon a time, I actually made the mistake of saying, "I understand," to a rape survivor. You know, it's one of those things we toss around casually until we cross a line with it. And then we are reminded that some things we can't understand unless we've actually been there.

So I'm kind of torn. Our man Codanblad says he understands why people would commit rape. Is he being grossly irresponsible in trying to make a point, or is there, you know, a reason he understands?

And that kind of sucks the levity out of that bit, and, of course, spits it back up all over the upholstery.

But Deep Thought? I must admit, that's a good one. It's ridiculous, deliberate, and a tacit request to give some space so that he can stop digging and try to climb out of the hole.

• • •​

A general note to those who intend to use humor as an excuse for repugnant arguments:

First, you need to work on your deliveries. One thing I'm well aware of is that in an arena like this, certain sarcasm and irony does not come across the way it is intended.

Secondly, the combination of subject matter and the dearth of sophistication about the "jokes" suggests a certain depravity. As long as your senses of humor are reserved entirely for yourselves, they're completely worthless.

So it's time for your confessions: How many times have you had a penis forced inside your body against your will?

Because some of us would greatly appreciate the opportunity to learn something about how denigrating your fellow rape survivors is helping you heal.

So you "humorists": the honest answer better be greater than zero.

• • •​

Recommended reading for our "humorists":

McEwan, Melissa. "Rape is Hilarious #18". Shakesville. January 22, 2008. http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/01/rape-is-hilarious.html ​

The excerpt:

 

i never said i have no sympathy for rape victims. of course i do. all i've said is i feel the way a girl dresses might contribute to her being raped. according to tiassa, statistics say otherwise, and i'm fine with that. maybe its only a tiny percentage of rape where that's a factor, perhaps not.

i did talk to my girlfriend. she thinks i'm offensive but can see what i'm saying. i think in every post i've mentioned that i think rape is wrong. everyone's so passionate about saying how bad rape is, that if i mention anything that's not a furious rant about evil rapists, you all vilify me.

tiassa, what i was saying about heels was that they simulate the feet during orgasm. i wasn't suggesting they pleasure a woman, i've only heard that they're uncomfortable. the stuff you brought up about rape being by people who know the person, i didn't know about that. i wasn't trying to refute any statistics or whatever, just saying the way a girl dresses might impact her chances of being raped.

I HATE RAPE! i think its awful. i don't feel any need to write more than that about it, anyone with half a brain knows its a despicable thing, end story. its like anyone who doesn't spend their posts in this topic abusing anyone who's not screaming at the top of their lungs how bad rape is, and how unfortunate people are, is a rapist. so fuck off.

 

Perhaps it was a good thing that you were pressed into expressing your hatred of rape or facing what not saying it in this context leads to. Perhaps that is the main thing that needs to be expressed in this context. There's so much code 'philosophy' that is always 'innocent'. But we really don't need it. We can leave the nuanced reactions to what rape victims might have done to prevent that rape to their parents and friends and self-defense teachers teachers who can say these things in ways that are clear and are not code for blaming the victims. You can always go and talk with you guy pals about how fucked up a certain online forum was and how it is true that some women should really have done something different, etc.

 

tiassa, i reread your post 123, and think you're just drawing way too many conclusions about me, and you're just wrong. just to help me out, for a moment forget all my posts on sciforums.

rape is wrong. i would be mortified to hear that anyone i know had been raped. women shouldn't have to do anything to avoid rape, men should stop raping women. i am not sexist, i don't judge people on gender.

clearly in not emphasising my values throughout posts, its making people think i'm deranged or evil or something. i am not kadark. i thought that girls dressing sexily MIGHT increase their chances of being raped. this in no way mitigates committing rape, i am just suggesting that in some cases, it might be a way of exciting rapists, or helping them choose targets. should statistics say otherwise, i accept that.

tiassa said

you're right. its completely ridiculous that some men are so primal, sexist, stupid etc. i also think it sucks that women should have to go to any length to avoid being raped. but i agree that taking those precautions might help her avoid rape or other unwanted attention. again, unfair to women.

as for 'there's more to life than sex', i completely agree. 'there is no greater truth to be found below the navel' - quote i heard somewhere.

for those of you thinking i'm just desperately conforming, due to my fear of your righteous fury (in post form), i'd like to say i've been described as blunt and tactless many times in my life. when i talked to my gf as suggested by phylogistician, she said could see why people were attacking me, due to how my arguments were worded. so this is my effort to fix that, i hope it clears things up.

 

So you'd have less sympathy, thinking they somehow brought it on themselves?

Look bub, your philosophy is skewed. If your girlfriend was raped one night when she was out dressed in a short skirt, would you dare say to her afterwards that she was partly responsible for what happened?

Because if you wouldn't say it, then you don't really think it. Imagine your girlfriend crying, bloodied, beaten, with some monster's semen inside her, and try and tell me you would pontificate.

 

nice
thank you

 

pardon but do hookers have a dress code?

 

I think it's great that you took this up with your girlfriend and can see why people are reacting the way they have. That's pretty raw.

And it speaks well of being blunt and tactless if one learns from what happens afterwards. More people should be blunt and tactless and capable of learning.

Politeness has not got us anywhere despite civilizations pretentions.

 

How do you want me to dress, baby?

But of course prostitutes can be raped, despite the contradictions this seems to reveal for certain minds. And protitutes who are raped were not asking for it either.

 

/aghast

but of course
"fuck me" is not "rape me"

/slinks away

 

Aren't you forgeting that rape is actually about power, control and anger, not necessarily about sexual desire? That most rapists have acess to non-criminal sex? That what the rapist is not able to control is not a sexual urge, it's a need to gain power over a person and use it to unleash their anger?

How much would the dress code actually influence a person's capacity to control that?

 

in that particular case not much. yet the dress code cannot be factored out as a variable in that context. contrast the emotions induced by a matronly or a nun's habit vs a boob top and mini skirt.

perhaps moving away from the bitches........a job interview....casual vs suit. the latter would be favorable to the goal. the suit induces the expected emotions in that context (respect,stability, competence, etc)

once again, one would have to be sociopathic to imagine "fuck me" attire is a green light to fuck. there other additional cues required like a verbal or physical assent. it most certainly is not a green light for rape.

studies have indicated that bitches have rape fantasies. i hold that is semantically an impossible state of affairs.

they are giving consent thus it is not rape. just masochism. quite humdrum actually