Does Chaos Theory prove a Mathematically Ordered Universe

This may be of interest. Morphogenesis (self-organization) was first proposed by Alan Turing.


But morphogenesis does not always yield the same result. Order may emerge from chaos but chaos can also emerge from order.

And IMO that presents a problem for Tegmark's Mathematical Universe, which assumes a consistent deterministic mathematical order. But is that necessarily so?
 
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Write4U said:
This may be of interest. Morphogenesis (self-organization) was first proposed by Alan Turing.


But morphogenesis does not always yield the same result. Order may emerge from chaos but chaos can also emerge from order.

And IMO that presents a problem for Tegmark's Mathematical Universe, which assumes a consistent deterministic mathematical order. But is that necessarily so?
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First highlight

Exactly , that is the way of the Universe , it recycles . Hot to Cold , Cold to Hot .

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Yes and no

Determinism always leaves out something that goes against its determine (That is the Creativity of the Universe , something New ) . Without determinism though , no macro objects would exist . The micro , micro , would not come together to form the macro , in the first place .

Without order the Universe would Not Exist . Without disorder the Universe would not exist ( Neither by the way in any particular order of priority ) .
 
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Write4U said:
Chaos theory (from Wiki) The theory was summarized by Edward Lorenz as:[11] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

It seems to me that what is explained with Chaos Theory is the fundamentally mathematical essence of all universal evolutionary processes, behaviors, and self-expression.

This is also confirmed by the best approximation of the initial chaotic conditions directly following the BB (the beginning) and their measurable mathematically evolutionary self-ordering mechanisms that resulted in our current universe with its ordered mathematical patterns at all levels of reality and by extension, metaphysically identified as symmetry, balance, harmony, fractality, etc.

From human perspective, the dynamical mathematical universal mechanics may be considered a quasi-intelligent self-ordering system, without the need for "intent".
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In chapter thirteen of "Stephen Hawking's Universe" entitled The Anthropic Principle.....
Dr. Hawking postulated an infinite number of "unsuccessful universes" out there somewhere in which there was no life.......
due to electromagnetism and / or gravity and / or weak nuclear force and / or strong nuclear force being at magnitudes........
that were not conducive for live as we know life.

Is this a good example of chaos theory being applied to Theoretical Physics?
 
NO .

Chaos theory proves that the Universe has order . Which is based on the physical . Which then proves that the Universe is based on the physical not mathematics .
 
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river said:
NO .

Chaos theory proves that the Universe has order . Which is based on the physical . Which then proves that the Universe is based on the physical not mathematics .
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The observation is based on the physical expression of order. The order itself is of a mathematical nature.
 
river said:
Scroll posts#382 , to the newests
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Looks like we are in agreement that without an pre-existing ordering imperative, the universe could not have physically expressed as we can observe and have dedicated an entire science to.
 
Write4U said:
Looks like we are in agreement that without an pre-existing ordering imperative, the universe could not have physically expressed as we can observe and have dedicated an entire science to.
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Order happens where it can . The pre-existing comes from thought not from energy-matter Universe .

The Universe can exist without mathematics , and does so .

But Mathematics helps to Understand our Universe .
 
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river said:
Order happens where it can . The pre-existing comes from thought not from energy-matter Universe .
The Universe can exist without mathematics , and does so .
But Mathematics helps to Understand our Universe .
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No, you are anthromorphizing.

Inherent Values and Mathematical functions exist independent of humans. The universe was mathematically self-organizing geometry from the beginning, long before man was even a mathematical probability...:cool:

Shape of the universe
The shape of the universe, in physical cosmology, is the local and global geometry of the universe. The local features of the geometry of the universe are primarily described by its curvature, whereas the topology of the universe describes general global properties of its shape as of a continuous object. The spatial curvature is related to general relativity, which describes how spacetime is curved and bent by mass and energy.
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And has been described and symbolized via human mathematics.
The spatial topology cannot be determined from its curvature, due to the fact that there exist (mathematically) locally indistinguishable spaces with different topologies.[1]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_universe#
 
river said: ↑
Order happens where it can . The pre-existing comes from thought not from energy-matter Universe .
The Universe can exist without mathematics , and does so .
But Mathematics helps to Understand our Universe .
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Write4U said:
No, you are anthromorphizing.

Inherent Values and Mathematical functions exist independent of humans. The universe was mathematically self-organizing geometry from the beginning, long before man was even a mathematical probability...:cool:
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Disagree

Any mathematics is the consequence of physical things and Life . Mathematics can not make either of them .

Shape of the universe
And has been described and symbolized via human mathematics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_universe# [/QUOTE]

Is unknown because we do not know where the edge of the Universe is . Until then we will not know its shape .
 
river said:
Disagree

Any mathematics is the consequence of physical things and Life . Mathematics can not make either of them .

Shape of the universe
And has been described and symbolized via human mathematics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_universe#

Is unknown because we do not know where the edge of the Universe is . Until then we will not know its shape .
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We don't need to know the exact shape. Mathematics are abstract guiding imperatives, which exist outside human control or symbols.

As Livio posits; "A circle is not a drawing on a piece of paper, but exists as an abstract mathematical objects within the spacetime fabric " We can see it everywhere as expressed by planetary orbits. Gravity causes very specific mathematics to emerge, dependent on its strength and the resulting gravitational spacetime curvatures.

1 + 1 = 2 is an abstract equation, which exists regardless of human symbolic algebra.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-the-universe-made-of-math-excerpt/
 
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Write4U said:
We don't need to know the exact shape. Mathematics are abstract guiding imperatives, which exist outside human control or symbols.

As Livio posits; "A circle is not a drawing on a piece of paper, but exists as an abstract mathematical objects within the spacetime fabric " We can see it everywhere as expressed by planetary orbits.

1 + 1 = 2 is an abstract equation, which exists regardless of human symbolic algebra.
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Agreed

But its not abstract to anything physical . The Physical by its very Nature , shape , will have of course mathematics drawn from it . The circle is three dimensional . Hence no longer a two dimensional mathematical imaginary shape .
 
river said:
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Agreed

But its not abstract to anything physical . The Physical by its very Nature , shape , will have of course mathematics drawn from it .
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But chaos is expressed as purely energetic shapeless fields, from which patterns, or shapes with measurable mathematically ordered patterns emerge, such as the exponential function or circular shapes, as described by Chaos Theory .
river said:
The circle is three dimensional . Hence no longer a two dimensional mathematical imaginary shape
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Actually an orbit is a 2 D plane, but aside from that, anything that has circular shape (sphere, globe).

3d circular shape
A cone has a circular or oval base and an apex (or vertex). The side of the cone tapers smoothly to the apex. A cone is similar to a pyramid but distinct as a cone has a single curved side and a circular base. Shaped like a ball or a globe a sphere is a completely round object.
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globe.png
torus.png
cone.png

...............Sphere, Globe................................Toroid.............................................Cone.....................

and the straight sided objects like Platonic solids
polyhedrons.png

https://www.skillsyouneed.com/num/3d-shapes.html
 
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river said: ↑
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Agreed

But its not abstract to anything physical . The Physical by its very Nature , shape , will have of course mathematics drawn from it .
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Write4U said:
But chaos is expressed as purely energetic shapeless fields, from which patterns, or shapes with measurable mathematically ordered patterns emerge, such as the exponential function or circular shapes, as described by Chaos Theory .
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Chaos theory is about complex systems.




Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary theory stating that, within the apparent randomness of chaotic complex systems, there are underlying patterns, interconnectedness, constant feedback loops, repetition, self-similarity, fractals, and self-organization. ... This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.
 
river said:
Chaos theory is about complex systems.
Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary theory stating that, within the apparent randomness of chaotic complex systems, there are underlying patterns, interconnectedness, constant feedback loops, repetition, self-similarity, fractals, and self-organization. ... This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.
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Absolutely, and those emergent patterns from the dynamical fields are not physical properties but mathematical properties, expressed as physical shapes.

Before a shape is expressed in reality, it exist as an abstract potentiality! (Bohm)
 
river said: ↑
Chaos theory is about complex systems.
Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary theory stating that, within the apparent randomness of chaotic complex systems, there are underlying patterns, interconnectedness, constant feedback loops, repetition, self-similarity, fractals, and self-organization. ... This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.
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Write4U said:
Absolutely, and those emergent patterns from the dynamical fields are not physical properties but mathematical properties.
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What dynamical fields are not From something physical ?

Why fields ?
 
river said:
What dynamical fields are not From something physical ?
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They are dynamical energetic values (quanta) fields
Why fields ?
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Cause they are without form, except perhaps as dynamic waves, which are mathematical objects.
Waves involve the transport of energy without the transport of matter. In conclusion, a wave can be described as a disturbance that travels through a medium, transporting energy from one location (its source) to another location without transporting matter.
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https://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/waves/Lesson-1/What-is-a-Wave
 
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