heh heh heh

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

-=-

Please stop posting nonsense.

 

[Michael]

By charging money for providing money.

They are just (as Christians were for a thousand years) forbidden to charge "interest" on monetary loans. So they have thought up a variety of ways to get more money back than they loaned out, in amounts depending on the time period of payback, that are not "interest". Recently they have put some serious thought into making arrangements that provide the great benefits of Western banking, without technically charging "interest", and have come up with some interesting innovations inspired by the Western advances that did depend on compound interest.

For example, one can buy a house from its owner, an Islamic bank, by paying for it over time - and, while you are paying for it (the exact agreed price, divided into installments without "interest") the bank rents the house to you - for a rental amount curiously equivalent (even to being adjusted downward over time) to what you would pay in interest on a Western mortgage loan. See how elegant?

In other words, barring some paperwork details Islamic banks work just like Western banks, except that they are regulated - Western banks were regulated too, for fifty years after the Great Depression, but that proved unpopular with the rich.

I know, this is what's so funny. In the end Islamic banking is exactly the same, lending money at a profit to the lender. Not every single Muslim walking into a bank gets a loan, just those the bank thinks can repay, with "rent" over and above the initial borrowed money on top of inflation.

And then, suddenly, SAM and DH are perfectly happy. Even though it's exactly the same as normal banking. Just add the word "Islam" and *poof*, It All Good.


That aside, I don't know what the answer is but I WISH to the GODS we would have let the banks collapse - namely Goldman Sucks.

 

[iceaura]

And then, suddenly, SAM and DH are perfectly happy. Even though it's exactly the same as normal banking. Just add the word "Islam" and *poof*, It All Good.

It's a bit more than that, though. Give the devil his due - these Islamic religious laws work somewhat as the US Constitution would, if it had regulations on banking written into it. They provide a means for leashing the moneylenders that can't be quietly removed by inserting a few pages into the thousands of pages of a Federal spending bill, in the final weeks of a lame duck President's last term of office - to pull an example out of the air.

The fact that oddly contorted work-arounds are necessary checks the manipulations of the financiers, and they need checking.

 

[Michael]

It's a bit more than that, though. Give the devil his due - these Islamic religious laws work somewhat as the US Constitution would, if it had regulations on banking written into it. They provide a means for leashing the moneylenders that can't be quietly removed by inserting a few pages into the thousands of pages of a Federal spending bill, in the final weeks of a lame duck President's last term of office - to pull an example out of the air.

The fact that oddly contorted work-arounds are necessary checks the manipulations of the financiers, and they need checking.

I really don't see any difference at all - at least in the real world. Take the Islamic Republic of Iran. A very few very rich people telling a hell of a lot of poor people what they can and can not do, think, own, eat, drink, wear, etc.....

How is it any different than anywhere else- a few rich powerful men ruling over a lot poor people.

Not that I don't think the bankers in the USA aren't greedy SOBs - I just think we were too big a pussy to let them fail. Gods what I wouldn't have given to see these guys on the streets with the rest of the working class. And I'm not talking about being unfair - I'm talking about that's what should have happened if things were fair.

Anyway.... Islamic countries like KSA, Qatar, UAE, etc.. are all exactly the same. Rich power few. Poor weak masses. Flip over to Communism - same. Flip over to Fascism - same. Flip over to Islamism - same. Flip over to anything and it's always the same. There's nothing special about Islam that prevents this. There is something special about Democracy that seems to somewhat delay it. But, in the end, it's the same shit, different diaper (Gods damn it I thought I coined that phrase and I checked and there's Gods damn websites names it!) Meh...

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

-=-

Except that communism would have no rich & poor.

 

[scifes]

I know, this is what's so funny. In the end Islamic banking is exactly the same, lending money at a profit to the lender. Not every single Muslim walking into a bank gets a loan, just those the bank thinks can repay, with "rent" over and above the initial borrowed money on top of inflation.

And then, suddenly, SAM and DH are perfectly happy. Even though it's exactly the same as normal banking. Just add the word "Islam" and *poof*, It All Good.


That aside, I don't know what the answer is but I WISH to the GODS we would have let the banks collapse - namely Goldman Sucks.

It's a bit more than that, though. Give the devil his due - these Islamic religious laws work somewhat as the US Constitution would, if it had regulations on banking written into it. They provide a means for leashing the moneylenders that can't be quietly removed by inserting a few pages into the thousands of pages of a Federal spending bill, in the final weeks of a lame duck President's last term of office - to pull an example out of the air.

The fact that oddly contorted work-arounds are necessary checks the manipulations of the financiers, and they need checking.

then how do you explain it being the choice for the fallen westren bank system which is as you say "the same"?

how dare you ask for evidence then set it aside and start chit chatting?

 

[iceaura]

I really don't see any difference at all - at least in the real world. Take the Islamic Republic of Iran. A very few very rich people telling a hell of a lot of poor people what they can and can not do, think, own, eat, drink, wear, etc.....

We are talking about someone not a financier telling the financiers what they can and cannot do, think, own, etc, - professionally - with an authority not easily dismissed.

That is a difference, as we see in the US Commodity Futures Modernization Act, the US failure to control credit card interest rates and charges, the US inability to regulate "offshore" shell and scam operations, and the inability of the US to levy taxes against the increasingly large proportion of its economy that is influenced by or tied up in these financial griftings.

It does appear that the major reason the Islamic banking setups are not splattering with the rest of the bubble pop is that they were prevented from signing on to the worst of the abuses by the religion of Islam. The US banks were only prevented by governmental regulations diligently enforced, which depended on the alertness of a Depression-educated and otherwise informed electorate choosing their representatives accordingly - so as soon as someone like Reagan comes along, or the financial guys get a grip on the news media otherwise, the bankers are over the fence.

 

[scifes]

That is a difference, as we see in the US Commodity Futures Modernization Act, the US failure to control credit card interest rates and charges, the US inability to regulate "offshore" shell and scam operations, and the inability of the US to levy taxes against the increasingly large proportion of its economy that is influenced by or tied up in these financial griftings.

so intrest is uncontrollable and bad, something an illetrate man saw through 1400 years ago..and all the professionally financiers couldn't see for the same amount of time, what does that mean?

It does appear that the major reason the Islamic banking setups are not splattering with the rest of the bubble pop is that they were prevented from signing on to the worst of the abuses by the religion of Islam. The US banks were only prevented by governmental regulations diligently enforced, which depended on the alertness of a Depression-educated and otherwise informed electorate choosing their representatives accordingly - so as soon as someone like Reagan comes along, or the financial guys get a grip on the news media otherwise, the bankers are over the fence.

thanks for explaining the reasons and how we reached the conclusion;

that 1400 years old dogma based islamic system have avoided a crisis which advanced human intellect based systems have fallen into..

are you saying that it is a coincidence and that the islamic system was lucky..and that generally is worse, meaning you're telling me to do some research and spoon feed you other proofs of how islamic dogma is already sitting in the happy end of the long journey people are creating systems to reach?

 

[Michael]

then how do you explain it being the choice for the fallen westren bank system which is as you say "the same"?

It's not. What I mean is, Western nations are not jumping over to an Islamic banking system - where did you get that idea? Secondly, it's the opposite, Islamic countries are slowly becoming Westernized. The exact same thing happened in Medieval Christian Europe.

You may see "Islamic" banks but don't kid yourself - they are/were built on oil moneys and based on Western banking practices. You see, in the 1970's Islamic nations used to deposit their money into Western banks at ZERO interest. Which was great for Western banks. It was OK too for Oil Oligarchy as they wanted a safe place to park their money. Soon someone said, hey, maybe we can come up with ways to make interest too. Which is what they are doing. But, to start, no oil, no money, no Islamic banks.

Think of it like this. Scifes wants a house.

1) Scifes goes into a Western bank. Takes a loan of $300,000 makes payments of $1500/month ends up paying back to the bank $700,000 over 30 years. Owns house.
2) Scifes goes into an "Islamic" bank. Takes a loan of $300,000 makes payments of $1500/month in "rent" ends up paying back to the bank $700,000 over 30 years. Owns house.

Option 2 is just as "Western" as option 1 whether you see the word "Islamic" in the name of the bank or not. The only difference is Bank 2 has oil money to secure their credit. Banks 1 made bad loans and (should have) gone belly up. But they are both Western styled banks using all the maths Nobel laureate economists have come up with to make money. Open the "Islamic" banks books and you'll see Western algorithms at play. For now oil money will help, but, in the future they will need to make as much or more money as Chinese, Japanese, German, Korean etc.. banks OR they will go out of business - I mean, oil is finite. If the Islamic bank makes loans to Muslims that can't or won't repay, they do belly up. If the Islamic bank can not compete and make as much money as Bank of Japan - they go belly up. Etc... there's nothing "magical" about "Islam" that allows a Muslim loan officer to know who to and who not to lend money to! ... I mean, come on

 

[Michael]

so intrest is uncontrollable and bad, something an illetrate man saw through 1400 years ago..and all the professionally financiers couldn't see for the same amount of time, what does that mean?


thanks for explaining the reasons and how we reached the conclusion;

that 1400 years old dogma based islamic system have avoided a crisis which advanced human intellect based systems have fallen into..

are you saying that it is a coincidence and that the islamic system was lucky..and that generally is worse, meaning you're telling me to do some research and spoon feed you other proofs of how islamic dogma is already sitting in the happy end of the long journey people are creating systems to reach?

I know this is going to be a pretty hard pill to swallow, but if you took a look at the 1400 years of Islam, you'll soon come to the conclusion that it's not all that great. I mean, during a mini ice age Europe was out of the picture and China was dealing with internal strife and Islam had about 400-600 years to do something and for that long of a time, it didn't do much. Oh, a little, but given that much time, not much at all.

Also, if you look into the economics you'll find that it was the Jews and the Christians living the good life in the Middle East - not the Muslims. Yes, that's true. Oh, the ruling elite were "Muslim" but most of the wealthiest people in the middle east were not Muslims. The bulk of the poor people, similar to today, were Muslims. And life wasn't all that grand for them. Most economists suggest that this had to do with trade with European Chrsitians. As ME Christians would have had better access - but, still, that does seem odd doesn't it?

This great Islamic civilization with masses of poor Muslims and a few rich Monarchs on the top. Then came a few rich well connected Muslims families and then quite a lot of rich Christian and Jew mechantile and (ironically) banking families and then masses of very poor Muslims.

Also, ask yourself, during this time, this 1400 years of blissful Islamic banking backed society - What would you say are the 5 top monuments? Are they in the Arabia, the birth place and epicenter of Islam? Are they even in the ME? Or are they in Europe, like Spain and India? Why? What are the 5 most important cities founded by, built and maintained by Muslims? Are they even in the ME? Well, there is Baghdad (although to be fair there was a HUGE Persian Capital city just a few kilometers from there). Well?

Just some things you may want to think about.

If banking exists to serve society and to better society then one would think you'd see societies with better banking to out compete ones that have poorer banking. Wouldn't you? Also, it's not necessarily a bad thing to go through a sever downturn period. Maybe it's good? I hope this one actually get worse. Much worse. I think it's good, kind of like a fire burning off old dead brush and making way for new trees

One last thing, as I understand, many Christians who would have liked to have the same social benefits as Muslims, wanted to convert (example: for tax relief) and were prevented from doing so - because they were an important tax base. Now, does this seem like a good system to you? Just some more things to think about.

 

[Michael]

I suppose on last comment, it's not at all hard for me to see that during a rise in Christianity European society stagnated. And I suppose it was hard for people back then to face up to facts and say, for instance: Hey this "Christian" banking, or "Christian" this or that really sucks and we can do one better. That's the challenge for Muslims today.

So, Islamic banking? Is it good. No. And, what you think is "Islamic" banking, is really just some tricky wording to get away with Western banking. The question is: Can you accept that? Face up to reality and accept that's the case?

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

-=-

No. He can't.

 

[scifes]

It's not. What I mean is, Western nations are not jumping over to an Islamic banking system - where did you get that idea?

this is very depressing..so all the reseach i did for the OP..

all the evidence, THE BLOODY BLASTED EVIDENCE...:splat:

Secondly, it's the opposite, Islamic countries are slowly becoming Westernized. The exact same thing happened in Medieval Christian Europe.

sad truth.
speed is there..
i don't know if the acceleration is positive or negitive..it can be both on different lanes..

You may see "Islamic" banks but don't kid yourself - they are/were built on oil moneys and based on Western banking practices. You see, in the 1970's Islamic nations used to deposit their money into Western banks at ZERO interest. Which was great for Western banks. It was OK too for Oil Oligarchy as they wanted a safe place to park their money. Soon someone said, hey, maybe we can come up with ways to make interest too. Which is what they are doing. But, to start, no oil, no money, no Islamic banks.

Think of it like this. Scifes wants a house.

1) Scifes goes into a Western bank. Takes a loan of $300,000 makes payments of $1500/month ends up paying back to the bank $700,000 over 30 years. Owns house.
2) Scifes goes into an "Islamic" bank. Takes a loan of $300,000 makes payments of $1500/month in "rent" ends up paying back to the bank $700,000 over 30 years. Owns house.

Option 2 is just as "Western" as option 1 whether you see the word "Islamic" in the name of the bank or not. The only difference is Bank 2 has oil money to secure their credit. Banks 1 made bad loans and (should have) gone belly up. But they are both Western styled banks using all the maths Nobel laureate economists have come up with to make money. Open the "Islamic" banks books and you'll see Western algorithms at play. For now oil money will help, but, in the future they will need to make as much or more money as Chinese, Japanese, German, Korean etc.. banks OR they will go out of business - I mean, oil is finite. If the Islamic bank makes loans to Muslims that can't or won't repay, they do belly up. If the Islamic bank can not compete and make as much money as Bank of Japan - they go belly up. Etc... there's nothing "magical" about "Islam" that allows a Muslim loan officer to know who to and who not to lend money to! ... I mean, come on

:yawn:
repitition..
i learned about this in more debth than you relize..
and i wanna shoot my self for forgetting it all after the exams..well most of it..and don't worry, it's available on the internet.

muslims who are west kissing ups exist..and they are the ones leading in the media because they keep the bottom of the media leader clean..

false practice doesn't make the theory wrong.

AND it's practiced correctly.. some do so wrongly..

it appears you know of islamic lee ways around islamic laws more than the islamic law itself..stop using info for the purpose it was given to you for..

that's why i wondered if you people lack knowledge, and oli laughed me off.

 

[Michael]

this is very depressing..so all the reseach i did for the OP.

all the evidence, THE BLOODY BLASTED EVIDENCE...:splat:

scifes, you do understand that ME countries have money purely and solely due to oil?

Not some mystical Islamic something or other - we are talking oil. Oil. That's it - oil. Oil bought using Western banking and the Western monetary system.

Stop and think about this for one minute. What IS money? What IS money? Now, is it "Islamic"? Or is modern day "money" an invention that is NOT Islamic? I can promise you "Islamic" banks are using "Western" money. It's just that simple.

As for a rise in "Islamic" banking. Is this the same Islamic banks using USD? Or the English pound?

Come on scifes.

false practice doesn't make the theory wrong.

AND it's practiced correctly.. some do so wrongly..

scifes, this is the same excuse Communist tell themselves .. .. it would only work, except that the people just don't practice it correctly. Which is anther way of saying: It would only work except it doesn't.


I bet it's really easy for you to see that Communism doesn't work. But it's very difficult, maybe impossible for a die hard Communist to see Communism doesn't work. They just are blind to this fact. In the exact same way we can see Islam doesn't work. You are blind to it.

BUT, what we have not is neo-Western-Islam. Just like Westernized Chinese Communism. In this new Islam you are charged 10% "rent" (rent = interest) and so it's all good "Islamic" Banking in Pound Sterling

You know, it's funny really, when you think even about the head scarf, another Western idea that over time became "Islamic" or even the architecture of mosques - based on a the Church in Constantinople (which is itself based on a Roman polytheistic temple). Things aren't "Islamic" because "Islam" doesn't exist in some bubble. There is no "Islam". It's just made up in your head. So when you read the words "Islamic" Banking - remember this is bullshit. It's like saying "Islamic Math" or "Islamic Science" - its meaningless.

 

[Michael]

One thing I am interested in scifes.

Back in the Islamic heyday can you name 5 major cities that were founded by and maintained by Muslims? Cities that Muslims build from the ground up? Kind of like Alexander the Great founded Alexandria. Or Constantinople.

If we assume that Islamic banking was worthwhile, then it would have lead to many many wonderful cities. You know, look at the Western Civilizations, we founded 1000s of cities. Just look at New York or Sydney or San Fransisco, Miami,Toronto, Paris etc.. ... one could even suggest Hong Kong and Singapore where small mud villages and built into great cities by the English and Chinese working together within the Western system.

 

[scifes]

scifes, you do understand that ME countries have money purely and solely due to oil?

yes i do.

keep a mental note of islamic countries without oil.

Not some mystical Islamic something or other - we are talking oil. Oil. That's it - oil. Oil bought using Western banking and the Western monetary system.

all money comes from one way or another, saying what the source is in no way affects the outcome of whether the mony stays or not.

don't the states have oil?

Stop and think about this for one minute. What IS money? What IS money? Now, is it "Islamic"? Or is modern day "money" an invention that is NOT Islamic? I can promise you "Islamic" banks are using "Western" money. It's just that simple.

??
???
????

As for a rise in "Islamic" banking. Is this the same Islamic banks using USD? Or the English pound?

??????

Come on scifes.

where to?

scifes, this is the same excuse Communist tell themselves .. .. it would only work, except that the people just don't practice it correctly. Which is anther way of saying: It would only work except it doesn't.

except communism collapsed all by it self..and didn't prove it's worth any how..so that doesn't give their claims much consideration.

as you pointed out somewhere before, non muslims lived in the islamic state better than they did when their people were in charge.

the islamic state was a miracle utopia when it stuck to it's standards, when it started following the west, it stared collapsing..

but it's standards stay best.

that is why the west is now returning to those standards which muslims threw away..some muslims threw away.

I bet it's really easy for you to see that Communism doesn't work. But it's very difficult, maybe impossible for a die hard Communist to see Communism doesn't work. They just are blind to this fact. In the exact same way we can see Islam doesn't work. You are blind to it.

you are blind to the OP's facts as well..

you just can't see islam working better..even when specialists are telling you that..so much for die-hard.

BUT, what we have not is neo-Western-Islam. Just like Westernized Chinese Communism. In this new Islam you are charged 10% "rent" (rent = interest) and so it's all good "Islamic" Banking in Pound Sterling

for the hundredth time..rent instead of intrest is a leeway around islamic law.

they are both forbidden.

if you are trying to drive me crazy by having me repeat this then it's working.

You know, it's funny really, when you think even about the head scarf, another Western idea that over time became "Islamic"

wrong on both accounts.
the headscarf was never islamic..that's made up by the stupid west.
the headscarf was never islamic.. muslims in the north pole don't have to wear it, on the other hand, i'd like to invite you to riyadh or dubai and not give you a scarf, you'll have a good tour of the hospitals..

or even the architecture of mosques - based on a the Church in Constantinople (which is itself based on a Roman polytheistic temple).

over decoration of mosques is not asked for in islam..

if you have a grudge for muslims going from camel nomads to architects better than their teachers, furthermore surpassing them, thn go take it on someone else.

Things aren't "Islamic" because "Islam" doesn't exist in some bubble. There is no "Islam". It's just made up in your head. So when you read the words "Islamic" Banking - remember this is bullshit. It's like saying "Islamic Math" or "Islamic Science" - its meaningless.

that bullshit is saving your ass from getting broke..

lol, i like it when bullshit brings down twin towers.

One thing I am interested in scifes.

Back in the Islamic heyday can you name 5 major cities that were founded by and maintained by Muslims? Cities that Muslims build from the ground up? Kind of like Alexander the Great founded Alexandria. Or Constantinople.

an 18 year old answers you, from the top of his mind, whith poor background in history.

go look at spain.
who invented fountains?
who invented fountains?
ever read of poems discribing spain in the islamic days? it was heaven on earth..

look what happened when the bullshit left..

If we assume that Islamic banking was worthwhile, then it would have lead to many many wonderful cities. You know, look at the Western Civilizations, we founded 1000s of cities. Just look at New York or Sydney or San Fransisco, Miami,Toronto, Paris etc..

nopwadays because muslims aren't that sticking to their standards, yes..
but go study isla..ehm, bullshit history..you'll be amazed..can't guarantee you happy though..

... one could even suggest Hong Kong and Singapore where small mud villages and built into great cities by the English and Chinese working together within the Western system.

sorry didn't find a pic of a white man whipping a Chinese guy..

i think if i search for shooting in the head i would find some..


last note, micheal, please stop derailing my thread, discuss the evidence in the OP..if you have a problem with bullshit please open a new thread.

 

[swarm]

the "backward religious cults" are what the "progressed civilized west"

Actually, thanks to the Abrahamic phobia against knowledge, it took us over a thousand years to get back to the technology level of Rome. Just think where we could be if people like you weren't dragging us down.

 

[spidergoat]

Developing a working system of banking, like the prohibition on consumption of pigs in Middle Eastern cultures, the potlatch among NW Native Americans, and various other taboos and traditions, were working models for society that evolved to fit the conditions at the time. Nothing about it indicated a supernatural source, any more than the invention of the atomic bomb proves Einstein's divinity.

 

[scifes]

Developing a working system of banking, like the prohibition on consumption of pigs in Middle Eastern cultures, the potlatch among NW Native Americans, and various other taboos and traditions, were working models for society that evolved to fit the conditions at the time. Nothing about it indicated a supernatural source, any more than the invention of the atomic bomb proves Einstein's divinity.

what indicates a supernatural source is the illogical fact of an old system deprived of evolution and advancement out-besting all others which have evolved and were improved by experience and knowledge.

it simply says that there's more to live our lives with than science, knowledge and experience.

do you agree?

 

[GeoffP]

and remember..this is a drop from a sea..islam IS the solution to all people's problems..it IS an utopian life style.. it IS perfect dogma better than any other man made systems..

Sure. And when it suppresses entire cultures into extinction, executes homosexuals and apostates and oppresses women it's just growing pains. Not a vehicle for Arab supremacism.