Islam vs. the Western World: off-topic posts from a Religion thread

What does that have to do with anything?

Why do people always go back 1400 years when discussing Muslims?

By your logic, Jews should be punished for 1400 years for what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, the British forever for crapping on the world and the American ad infinitum for destroying so many societies and commiting mass genocide on its natives.

 

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Well, that's what you do.

 

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Only the ones liberating people in other countries.

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Which has what to do with what?

 

Pehaps the source of the west's empiralism is actually Islam. We learned from the best.

 

You missed the part where the people stay in their own land and govern themselves.

 

All the better to be exploited.

 

Exactly. So why pretend to be liberators?

 

Tyler: Cool. Where did you live?

In Hangzhou. I attended a cross-cultural studies program at Zhejiang University

Tyler: I know a few people who have openly hoped for a war over the island for the sake of bringing liberation. The government's propaganda demonizing "western ideas" has a backlash whereby some over-romanticize the west and do, indeed, hope for their aid in "liberation".

You mean Taiwan? A Chinese friend of mine once said that the West would never understand about Taiwan. She said in China 'we have a thousand years of feeling'. I agree that there are some cultural trends that the Chinese absolutely love, music, some foods and definitely fashion but I don't think it is to the extent that it undermines their own cultural icons. I have never met anyone from China who thought Western politics were necessarily better than the 'asian way', as a matter of fact I have met many who accuse the West of arrogance. Certainly I have yet to meet one who wishes the U.S would come and 'liberate' them. In Myanmar there is this desire for Western intervention but I never came across this in China.

Tyler: Many nations acted horribly over Rwanda, and America did not do what it could have. Much as people have generally ignored Sudan for too long. But there's a difference between criminal negligence and outright murder. America also hasn't used it's military to kill a good 3,000+ of it's own citizens any time recently.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by outright murder? As for the 3,000+ perhaps the U.S hasn't done so with its own citizens but it certainly has caused the deaths of many more non-citizens. Do you suggest that killing ones citizens is more heinous than killing non-citizens? Anyway with a population as large as theirs you should put those figures in context as well as in which context those murders took place. As a matter of fact can you please give the context for those deaths?

Tyler: They sold Rwanda weapons. They currently sell Sudan weapons. And are the largest oil trader.

Yes they are and don't deny it. Like I said they deal in trade, they remove themselves from any internal policies concerning sovereign governments. If you read Dallaires (excuse the spelling) book the Chinese were not directly involved in the Rwanda fiasco. The French directly traded and trained the Hutu's at the time. Chinese arms can be found all throughout Africa, militia men don't have to do business directly with China to get their hands on them.

Tyler: They're giving legitimization in exchange for cheap oil. In essence, China gives them defense.

They make and exchange for arms and they whatever they do with them is their problem. Its true they never pretend to care nor get involved with internal matters. Don't pretend that American hypocrisy that speaks of democracy, freedom and human rights on one hand and then arming people on the other is any less destructive.


Tryler: I can agree with this. Though I think the west has had it's hands mostly tied on Sudan. Partially by it's own obsession with the Middle East, and partially by China and Russia's extension of protection.

I don't blame the Russians nor the Chinese for extending protection. The heavy handed arrogant attitude of the U.S government when it comes to foreign policy has created this backlash by other governments and since we don't have the moral high-ground we have no way of using that as leverage.

Tyler: There was a good article recently on China's "colonization" (though an economic form of colonization) of Africa. I'll try to find it for you.

China offers more aid to Africa than any other nation in recent years but I don't call that 'colonization'. But please leave a link to the article when you have the time.

 

If you are talking about Afghanistan, the country is under US occupation. How are they supposed to be building their nation when the US has destroyed the infrastructure, political base and economy? And of course the funds that the US has injected in an effort to rebuild seems to have gone missing.

Its a little naive trying to project ones own values on a devastated nation.

 

From whence do you gain this wondrous insight?

 

You don`t perhaps think it could have anything to do with division and destabilsation caused by covert ops in the ME going back decades, or the recent invasions of sovereign Muslim nations under the pretext of fighting a "war on terror", and thus amplifying said terror and extremism. Invading entire nations hunting for 1 alleged man is not conducive to peaceful relations now is it. But ex president Bush wanted him dead or alive. Recent events in Pakistan are indicative that US foreign policy is way out of kilter.

You don`t perhaps for a single moment think these issues may be related?

 

That comment reflects your ignorant racist bigotry Forrest. You have no clue as to Muslim hygiene.

 

If this thread was titled Jewish mindset, it would have either had the title changed or the thread cesspooled.

We're not allowed to say Israel goes fascist, but the Arab mindset is free speech.

 

The OP did not state Arabs go fascist. What's your point?

 

Do you shower with paper towels too?

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If I got shit on my face, I would clean it off with a paper towel before I showered.

Sam's got a point there.

 

Never mind the destruction of two countries and the million dead.

It may also help to stop pimping for and arming dictators, if any of that gibberish is to be taken seriously. In practice, we have the US government promising to "work with any Israeli government" even presumably if it includes racists like Leiberman, while maintaining that it will not recognise any Palestinian unity government that does not include Fayyad, who is not even under consideration by the Palestinian people.

In that case, pretending to stand for some hypothetical ideal is just so much hypocrisy.

 

Saddam was a dictator who we overthrew. You just implied that was a good thing. Anyhow, it's another red herring. Lots of people would object to this resolution, not just American citizens.

 

Saddam was also a dictator you armed. Meanwhile, after a million dead, the entire country is fucked up.

Since the UN has already passed it, it would appear that the "lots of people" represent those who get their jollies from killing Muslims.