Star Wars vs Star Trek

[TW Scott]

His opinion on EU's cannonicity has absolutely no bearing on the laws of physics. If your true intent is applying physicals and scientific priniciples to the ST vs SW debate, you can't arbitrarily ignore principles that hurt your argument.

In an argument where we are deciding both fictional realities are real physics takes a flying leap out the window. It just doesn;t enter the equation as both universe bent physics over the table and did it rotten. Star Wars just showed us thing but Star trek TNG tried to explain them.

It's an all or nothing endeavor. And Darkstar (Is that his name?) made a valid point about supersonic and subsonic shockwaves.

Darkstar wouldn't know actual physics on any scale if it reached up and chewed his face off. The man completely ignored workheating as a viable model becuase it hurts his postion. What's worse is what we see in ESB directly supports work heating.

 

[TW Scott]

Unfortunately for you, the suncrusher is in EU, not in Lucas' visioned universe.

The two DS's could be destroyed easily by either a simple photon torpedo, of a squadron of attack fighters if necessary. (Was the second DS bigger than the first? If so, WHY?!? Why not build it smaller? Would have been more efficient and still could have got the job done.)

Are you familiar with trilithium?

Unfortunately the EU directly enters this conversation as part of the first frigging post.

The DS's would hardly be a target for anything. Assuming you have the first DS, the federation outpost would have to run a full scane, something that could take DAYS considering the size of the DS. Long before then the outpost was destroyed as the planet it was sitting on was destroyed. And the DS has again moved behind friendly lines undetected.

The second DS was built larger to create overlapping shields that would not let ANY attacks through. It would take a Superlaser to bring down one of the shields and create gaps in the shields for fighter or photon torpedoes to get through. the second DS was also built to fully recharge in one hour as opposed to twenty four.


Trilitium a crude chemical explosive used to create rips in time space. The torpedoes have an enhanced ability against unshielded targets often obliterating them However shield propose a difficulty as they have to be weakened already for the devices to be able to even bring them down. the torpedoes are slower that photon torpedoes and have a shorter range.

 

[TW Scott]

Exactly.

You beat me to it.

Starfleet only needs a single trilithium torpedo, correct?

Well it took two to destroy the caretaker's array that was only a few kilometers in length and unshielded.

A Trilithium device is a great demolition device, but not so hot at penetrating any kinds of shields.

 

[antaran_1979]

to TW Scott:
"No, the Enterprise Suacer was sent careening off course by the warpcore breach. She still had her shields or she would have been destroyed by the breach. She also must have had her shields as we have seen in other instances that the hull would have melted away. Remeber that few Federation vessels are made for landing on planets and all of them are designed to come in at very low speeds, not free fall."

E-D saucer has no shield. the shockwave from the war core breach travesls straight through and there is no shield reaction. the instant the saucer hits the atmosphere burnouts begin to form and fire ingolfs it. and Fed Vessels are not ment for atmosphere entry. if a recall corectly the Intrepid was firts cruiser sized ship constructed specificaly for this reason.

"Well it took two to destroy the caretaker's array that was only a few kilometers in length and unshielded." those were tri-cobolt devices not trilitium.

"t should also be of note that undoubtedly that was a speciual case torpedo as Riker said it would take every last torpedo to break open the hollow asteroid that the Enterpirise D was trapped inside." actualy they wanted to fire phasers to break loose from the asteroid, but the structure was not stable and they could have caused a cave in. do you make things up? BTW that is an episode that shows E-D traveling inside an asteroid field and actualy entering an asteroid right?

 

[antaran_1979]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. TurboLasers are a particle beam that goes through gases to strengthen it.

HELLO!!! anybody home??? exotic particles, particle beams.... phasers and disruptors are particle beams you know. particle beams are composed of particles you know (like electrons, protons, alpha particles,neutrons). in this case they must be something exotic since no particle we know of would have such effects on other matter or energy. that is whay i say TLs must be similar. the only way do describe on-sceen effects of TLs is to presume they ARE particle beams and NOT lasers and definitly NOT plasma (no fires, thermal exposure or similar). hand blastres could be plasma though. they don't show any of the properties that TLs do and they do live burnouts. still the structure of the bolt seriously contradicts plasma behavor. plasma is gas. very low density gas. there us a page somwhere on the net, i'll post the link when i find it, which describes the weapons used in SF from a physics perspective. plasma i described as an atempt to use spray gun. in othe words usefull at close quarters (like a flame thrower) but useless at range.

and dude, DO read the posts before making replies. you don't do SW any justice. in case you didn't notice i'm trying to establish the what ifs in this confrontation.

 

[SkywalkerJedi]

Unfortunately for you, the suncrusher is in EU, not in Lucas' visioned universe.

The two DS's could be destroyed easily by either a simple photon torpedo, of a squadron of attack fighters if necessary. (Was the second DS bigger than the first? If so, WHY?!? Why not build it smaller? Would have been more efficient and still could have got the job done.)

Are you familiar with trilithium?

The problem is that you have to hit the 2 meter hole at a exact place on the giant Death Star. so you have to launch at the exact time when flying over the hole, only Luke Skywalker did it because of his force sensitivity, nobody in Star Trek have the force therefore they can't do it, and if vader wanted to he can slam the Trekkie ships into a sun using the force! And yes EU is canon and lucas' visioned universe if Geroge Lucas didn't approve it it would of been cancelled! Most of Star Trek is not made by the creator of Star Trek! haa Trekkies here you go! You Trekkies are forgetting about the Jedi, Sith , the Force, and Lightsabers! geez, think out of the box trekkies!

 

[SkywalkerJedi]

HELLO!!! anybody home??? exotic particles, particle beams.... phasers and disruptors are particle beams you know. particle beams are composed of particles you know (like electrons, protons, alpha particles,neutrons). in this case they must be something exotic since no particle we know of would have such effects on other matter or energy. that is whay i say TLs must be similar. the only way do describe on-sceen effects of TLs is to presume they ARE particle beams and NOT lasers and definitly NOT plasma (no fires, thermal exposure or similar). hand blastres could be plasma though. they don't show any of the properties that TLs do and they do live burnouts. still the structure of the bolt seriously contradicts plasma behavor. plasma is gas. very low density gas. there us a page somwhere on the net, i'll post the link when i find it, which describes the weapons used in SF from a physics perspective. plasma i described as an atempt to use spray gun. in othe words usefull at close quarters (like a flame thrower) but useless at range.and dude, DO read the posts before making replies. you don't do SW any justice. in case you didn't notice i'm trying to establish the what ifs in this confrontation

Wrong! Blasters are blost of compressed energy NOT plasma or phased particals like phasers. They are so compressed that 1 bolt= 2 phaser beams!
Blaster seem weak because of the Stormtooper armor, watch the movies carfully and you will notice the affects of a blaster on UNARMORED people or stuctures! You are forgetting about the elite melee weapons and the Force! dubble check your points befor posting!

 

[SkywalkerJedi]

The reason Star Wars dont use proton tropetos because they are too weak! Star Wars use Turbolasers and Superlasers they are hundreds, thousands or evan tens of thousands times the firepower of a photon tropeto. But unfortunatly one of Star Trek's best weapon is Photon tropeto! Next time explore the EU! they are canon too!

 

[USS Athens]

The reason Star Wars dont use proton tropetos because they are too weak! Star Wars use Turbolasers and Superlasers they are hundreds, thousands or evan tens of thousands times the firepower of a photon tropeto. But unfortunatly one of Star Trek's best weapon is Photon tropeto! Next time explore the EU! they are canon too!

EU stands for Expanded Universe, Lucas said himself that the EU was something different from his universe.

 

[USS Athens]

The problem is that you have to hit the 2 meter hole at a exact place on the giant Death Star. so you have to launch at the exact time when flying over the hole, only Luke Skywalker did it because of his force sensitivity, nobody in Star Trek have the force therefore they can't do it, and if vader wanted to he can slam the Trekkie ships into a sun using the force! And yes EU is canon and lucas' visioned universe if Geroge Lucas didn't approve it it would of been cancelled! Most of Star Trek is not made by the creator of Star Trek! haa Trekkies here you go! You Trekkies are forgetting about the Jedi, Sith , the Force, and Lightsabers! geez, think out of the box trekkies!

A 2 meter hole is easy, the ST has automated systems, not gunners using joysticks!

If he could really slam a vessel into the sun, why doesn't he do this to any rebel ship then?

Lucas just said it wasn't a part of HIS universe. He wasn't about to stop a bunch of Wars fans from having a little fun.

Yes most of ST is not made by Gene anymore. But I believe his family made it clear that everything that happened on the TV shows and movies after his death was canon.

We calculated the the jedi/sith threat a long time ago. The fact of the matter is that we've seen phasers put out beams quite significantly wider than that of a lightsaber (not to mention that phasers are .98 the speed of light, and we've never seen a jedi have the ability to react to something remotely that fast), and TW, Jedi/Sith do not have absorb abilty. Vader only deflected it, says the novelization which is canon.

But the man who may have been the fastest draw in the galaxy was not fast enough to surprise Vader. Before those bolts zipped halfway across the table, the Dark Lord had lifted a gauntlet-protected hand and effortlessly deflected them so they exploded against the wall in a harmless spray of flying white shards.
-tESB, Chapter 11

 

[SkywalkerJedi]

A 2 meter hole is easy, the ST has automated systems, not gunners using joysticks!

If he could really slam a vessel into the sun, why doesn't he do this to any rebel ship then?

Lucas just said it wasn't a part of HIS universe. He wasn't about to stop a bunch of Wars fans from having a little fun.

Yes most of ST is not made by Gene anymore. But I believe his family made it clear that everything that happened on the TV shows and movies after his death was canon.

We calculated the the jedi/sith threat a long time ago. The fact of the matter is that we've seen phasers put out beams quite significantly wider than that of a lightsaber (not to mention that phasers are .98 the speed of light, and we've never seen a jedi have the ability to react to something remotely that fast), and TW, Jedi/Sith do not have absorb abilty. Vader only deflected it, says the novelization which is canon.

But the man who may have been the fastest draw in the galaxy was not fast enough to surprise Vader. Before those bolts zipped halfway across the table, the Dark Lord had lifted a gauntlet-protected hand and effortlessly deflected them so they exploded against the wall in a harmless spray of flying white shards.
-tESB, Chapter 11

Some automated systems! well you are forgetting computers can manufunction, Force can't! they can just jam the computer, blast the shuttle or ship, or use the Force to decive it! Vader can't do it beacuse his suit limited his force abilities, read book of anger, palpatine use a hyperspace wormhole to destory a fleet! The EU is canon it is approved by lucasfilm! it is not the gauntlet protected hand it is called Force absorbe! wide beam phaser can't kill and Force users can resist stun or they simply use the force to deflect it using Force protection or Force Armor. check the database you will find that Force users can use telekenises to slam objects big as a starship. you are fogetting that Star Trek ships are way smaller than Star Wars ships. The biggest is USS Enterprise, but a Clone Wars Ventor-class star destoryer is 1.5 Km long Enterprise is 687 Meters long, and Star Wars's biggest ship is 20 Km long!

 

[Flectarn]

SkywalkerJedi;1789925]Wrong! Blasters are blost of compressed energy NOT plasma or phased particals like phasers. They are so compressed that 1 bolt= 2 phaser beams!
Blaster seem weak because of the Stormtooper armor, watch the movies carfully and you will notice the affects of a blaster on UNARMORED people or stuctures! You are forgetting about the elite melee weapons and the Force! dubble check your points befor posting!:mad

Like these?

or perhaps the blaster bolts reflecting all over the palace on Naboo? or off the ground?

where'd you hear the two x a phaser blast figure? when'd you ever see a blaster make some one disapear, or do the same to several meters of rock?

 

[SkywalkerJedi]

A 2 meter hole is easy, the ST has automated systems, not gunners using joysticks!

If he could really slam a vessel into the sun, why doesn't he do this to any rebel ship then?

Lucas just said it wasn't a part of HIS universe. He wasn't about to stop a bunch of Wars fans from having a little fun.

Yes most of ST is not made by Gene anymore. But I believe his family made it clear that everything that happened on the TV shows and movies after his death was canon.

We calculated the the jedi/sith threat a long time ago. The fact of the matter is that we've seen phasers put out beams quite significantly wider than that of a lightsaber (not to mention that phasers are .98 the speed of light, and we've never seen a jedi have the ability to react to something remotely that fast), and TW, Jedi/Sith do not have absorb abilty. Vader only deflected it, says the novelization which is canon.

But the man who may have been the fastest draw in the galaxy was not fast enough to surprise Vader. Before those bolts zipped halfway across the table, the Dark Lord had lifted a gauntlet-protected hand and effortlessly deflected them so they exploded against the wall in a harmless spray of flying white shards.
-tESB, Chapter 11

EU stands for Expanded Universe, Lucas said himself that the EU was something different from his universe.

If Star Trek TV shows is canon so is EU!

 

[antaran_1979]

Wrong! Blasters are blost of compressed energy NOT plasma or phased particals like phasers. They are so compressed that 1 bolt= 2 phaser beams!
Blaster seem weak because of the Stormtooper armor, watch the movies carfully and you will notice the affects of a blaster on UNARMORED people or stuctures! You are forgetting about the elite melee weapons and the Force! dubble check your points befor posting!

lol! it looks like SW fand can't reach a concensus on what TLs are
and please let the elders discuss this subject, you are making a fool of your self. compressed energy. there you go using words you don't understand again. 1bolt=2 phaser beams. what bolt? what phaser? you did not even bother did you?

and yes i did see blasters used on Leah and some plants and gliders. nothing to be impressed about. even in the 22nd century Earths Stafleet had more penetration power then that. but i am not interested in ground combat. my sole purpose here is to establish on-screen canon facts so i can mode my KM

 

[Flectarn]

Some automated systems! well you are forgetting computers can manufunction, Force can't! they can just jam the computer, blast the shuttle or ship, or use the Force to decive it! Vader can't do it beacuse his suit limited his force abilities, read book of anger, palpatine use a hyperspace wormhole to destory a fleet! The EU is canon it is approved by lucasfilm!

http://www.canonwars.com/SWCanon2-condensedmore.html#IV-Conclusion

IV. Conclusion

The only self-consistent way to understand the myriad canon policy statements is to acknowledge the dual-canon approach wherein Lucas Licensing's Official Continuity Policy and Lucas/LFL's canon policy co-exist.

In the Lucas/LFL canon policy, Lucas's films and the associated scripts and novelizations constitute the whole of the Star Wars story. Meanwhile, we get to see a different interpretation of that universe in the parallel reality known as the Expanded Universe.

wide beam phaser can't kill and Force users can resist stun or they simply use the force to deflect it using Force protection or Force Armor. check the database you will find that Force users can use telekenises to slam objects big as a starship. you are fogetting that Star Trek ships are way smaller than Star Wars ships. The biggest is USS Enterprise, but a Clone Wars Ventor-class star destoryer is 1.5 Km long Enterprise is 687 Meters long, and Star Wars's biggest ship is 20 Km long!

except in the Voyager episode where tuvok disaples the bridge crew with the wide beam phaer he states that if they didn't cooperate the next plast would consist of wide beam kill.

meh,ventors smaller than a de'derix

http://www.st-minutiae.com/misc/comparison/
http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/comparison.gif - updated version of above image

 

[SkywalkerJedi]

lol! it looks like SW fand can't reach a concensus on what TLs are
and please let the elders discuss this subject, you are making a fool of your self.

and yes i did see blasters used on Leah and some plants and gliders. nothing to be impressed about. even in the 22nd century Erths Stafleet had more penetration power then that. but i am not interested in ground combat. my sole purpose here is to establish on-screen canon facts so i can mode my KM

That is a exception, because that blaster hit the door first than leia! remember when Han fried greedo, the AT-ATs blasted the rebles ,the Death Star! Technology is not used to replace ground troops, they are used to support them! If you want space combat The Grand Army of the Republic's Navy's open circle fleet vs the whole Starfleet! go check the databanks. Open Circle Fleet have 10 Stardestoryers and 200 Cruisers 20 dreadnaunts and alot of fighters!

 

[Flectarn]

If Star Trek TV shows is canon so is EU!

that doesn't make any sense... star trek IS a tv show the movies are incidental

 

[Flectarn]

"That is a exception, because that blaster hit the door first than leia! !"

sure looks like it's infront of the wall to me. you'd think if it was hitting the wall there be some kind of damage

 

[SkywalkerJedi]

it bonced off the door and hit her. technology is for supporting ground combat not replace it! if you want space combat for example the Open Circle Fleet from the republic navy have 10 Star destoryers 200 attack crusiers, 100 dreadnaunts and a huge number of fighters.

 

[SkywalkerJedi]

that why its called a blast door it can block blasters and phasers