View Full Version : Five most important events in US History


§outh§tar
08-04-04, 01:27 AM
I have this assignment to do for History AP. Now I'm not an American so I wouldn't know much about American history in the first place. Now instead of picking some five and then looking like a fool for leaving out Pearl Harbor, or 9/11, I need the help of all you intelligent, sophisticated, enlightened scholars to give me what you think are the five most important events in US history.

Briefly explain why each was important and why you made your number one selection. Thanks, greatly appreciated. I will give my five tomorrow after a night of research.

cosmictraveler
08-04-04, 07:41 AM
I'll just give one.

The signing of The Declaration Of independance.

Read it and it explains why.

Spyke
08-04-04, 08:40 AM
Here's a few of mine.

Signing of the Declaration in 1776, which signalled the birth of the nation

The ratification of the Constitution in 1788, establishing the federal republic

South Carolina's decision to secede following Lincoln's victory in 1860 which split the Union, and eventually the surrender of the Confederacy in 1865 preserving the Union

The 1898 Spanish-American War and Congress' ultimate decision to annex Hawaii in 1898 and then the Philippines in 1899 (signalled the US' intent to become a world power)

Pearl Harbor (ended US isolation and officially ushered the US into the war)

The A-bomb over Hiroshima in August 1945 (introduces the Atomic Age)

Several events that occurred in the last couple of years of the 1940s that introduced the Cold War (Truman Doctrine, Berlin Crisis, creation of NATO, and the Soviet's test firing their own A-bomb), which dominated US foreign policy decisions for over 40 years

Indirectly, the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major event in US history (ending the Cold War and suddenly leaving the US without a major foe)

9/11 (the US was struck on its own soil, and gave it a new major threat to focus on in the 21st century)

Brandon9000
08-04-04, 08:44 AM
The Battle of Yorktown, which effectively ended the war for independence.

Arditezza
08-04-04, 11:59 AM
Some additional events to consider:

The Monroe Doctrine; named for president James Monroe who delivered it in a speech to congress in 1823, it was the most important assertion to date of United States' foreign policy in history. This statement of position would dictate the policy of the United States in international affairs for years to come.

The Lousiana Purchase The U.S. purchased Louisiana from France in 1803. It had several significant economic and political implications. From an economic perspective it doubled the size of the United States at a price of only fifteen million dollars. for a territory that was rich in minerals and natural resources. It gave the midwest access by boat to the sea, increasing trade and reducing our dependance on European ports. Jefferson, carefully deliberated whether the Constitution granted him the right to acquire territory for the purpose of expanding the Union. His action established the power of the president to expand the borders of the United States under the existing powers of the Constitution.

The New Deal; The New Deal had three main purposes. First, it provided relief for the needy. Second, it aided nationwide recovery by establishing jobs and encouraging business, and third, it tried to reform business and government so a severe depression would never happen in the United States again. Some of the results of the New Deal were important and long lasting. Even after the depression, reforms such as the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation and the Social Security Act continued to exist. After the New Deal, the government's role in banking and welfare would continue to grow steadily. It allowed the U.S. to recover and steady itself to grow into the economic powerhouse it is today.

The Civil War; The Civil War had significant economic, political, and social implications. The Civil War, preserved the Union by settling the slavery issue once and for all and readmitting the states that had succeeded from the Union. The impact of the Civil War on the U.S. economy was dramatic. The war devastated the economy of the South. Not only were agricultural resources of the region destroyed, but slave labor, on which the economy was based, was eliminated. The Civil War also marked the transformation of the U.S. from what had been mainly an agrarian society into an industrial society. This shift in the economy resulted from rapidly changing technology which came as a direct response to wartime needs. The emergence of the U.S. as an industrial society also resulted in the North replacing the South as the economic center of the country. As a result of the Emancipation Proclamation and passage of the Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Fifteenth Amendments along with the momentous events of the Civil War, we had a permanent solution to the issue of slavery and the beginning of civil rights for all people.

Brown v. Board of Education; It was a significant to the amendments to the Constitution, the civil rights movement, the Supreme Court's power of judicial review, and the American ideal of equality and diversity within our society. The case stands as a historical and contemporary example of the rule of law. Marking the start of the modern civil rights movement, the decision for Brown v. Board of Education was based on the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment, and was the basis for the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

dixonmassey
08-05-04, 01:56 PM
I have this assignment to do for History AP. Now I'm not an American so I wouldn't know much about American history in the first place. Now instead of picking some five and then looking like a fool for leaving out Pearl Harbor, or 9/11, I need the help of all you intelligent, sophisticated, enlightened scholars to give me what you think are the five most important events in US history.

Briefly explain why each was important and why you made your number one selection. Thanks, greatly appreciated. I will give my five tomorrow after a night of research.


Any rating of anything (including history) is highly subjective and therefore objectively it's nearly worthless. Just read an introductory history book, maybe something will catch your eye. Unless you are a historian, need to pass a test, etc., learning history in which you have little interest is misplacement of your limited time resources. History is vast, your life is short.

§outh§tar
08-05-04, 04:40 PM
@ dixonmassey

In a country where a letter grade is used to determine one's future, I doubt your suggestion of any practical use. It is unfortunate, but that's the way it is. I admit I don't care an iota for American history and my employer won't either but hey, pass the class or flip burgers.

§outh§tar
08-05-04, 05:23 PM
Ok, here are my five:

Signing of the Declaration of Independence
The signing of the Declaration of Independence in 1776 forever distinguishes America in that it contained the first ever formal statement by a whole people of their right to a government of their own choosing.

September 11 attacks
The September 11 attacks unified America for the 21st century and made combating terrorism the focus of United States foreign policy.

The New Deal
The New Deal established federal responsibility for the wellbeing of the economy and the American people. It also restored faith in American democracy during an era of communism and fascism.

The Civil War
The North’s victory over the South in the American Civil War ensured the preservation of the Union, the abolishment of slavery and the acknowledgement of citizenship to the freed slaves. The war also indicated the new economic and political upper hand of the Northern states.

The Louisiana Purchase
The purchase doubled the United States in size, greatly strengthening the country materially, setting off westward expansion and confirming the implied power of the federal Constitution.


Now I need your help on which order of importance they should be in. I don't know if the Louisiana Purchase is more important than the Civil War.. so recommend their order of important 1-5.

Oh and @ dixonmassey

I have to write an essay on why U.S. history is an important class. Now obviously I could care less but any ideas, anyone? :)

Spyke
08-05-04, 09:28 PM
The Mexican-American War might be at least as significant as the Louisiana Purchase. While it didn't bring quite as much new territory into the Union (529,000 square miles as opposed to 830,000 square miles), it brought in the Southwest Territories, particularly California, while at the same time President Polk got the British to agree to divide the Oregon Territory along the 49th Parallel. The positive was the US acquired the Pacific ports of San Diego, San Francisco and Bremerton Sound (at Seattle), which was a huge commercial boon for the US and its Far East trade. The negative was that the acquistion of the Southwest territory re-ignited the problem of sectionalism, which had been fairly quiet, at least in Congress, since the nullification crisis in 1832. But the issue of slavery in the newly acquired territories again began to dominate politics in Congress in the 1850s.

dixonmassey
08-05-04, 09:55 PM
@ dixonmassey

In a country where a letter grade is used to determine one's future, I doubt your suggestion of any practical use. It is unfortunate, but that's the way it is. I admit I don't care an iota for American history and my employer won't either but hey, pass the class or flip burgers.


As I've told if test is an issue you should follow the crowd and ratings. The best way is to write about the historical periods your teacher likes (in Universities it's not that hard. Prof must publish papers in scientific journals) and the MOST important: one should now how prof interpret one event or the other. In two words: paraphrase (in very different words and sentences) the wise works/conclusions of your prof and A is yours. Immitation is the highest form of flattery, scientists/teachers/everybody love when other folks see/share their "unique" the most advanced wisdoms. As for burger flipping, you may ace everything and still flip burgers or do equally noble jobs. Just keep it in mind.

AP as far I understand is HS advanced placement. I am not sure if your history teacher has a Ph.D. (it's very likely he has) or masters in history. If he has any advanced degree he most likely has published some useless crap in some G*d forgotten journals. Just use science citation index to find out what your teacher published and where (abstract of paper will be most likely included in the search results. So no need to read/look for actual papers.). You can access science citation index at the library of the nearest to you moderately research oriented (2nd tier at least) university.
The same approach will be very usefull in dealing with your present and future humanities essays.

dixonmassey
08-05-04, 10:32 PM
My rating:

1) French-Idian wars, middle 18th century. Actually it's mostly French-Anglo American wars. Great Brittain was almost totally broke after the war. To pay for the war GB has raised taxes on American colonies. Americans do not like taxes. Therefore, Revolution was inevitable.They did not mind their butts to be protected from French though. GB was too weak/broke after the French Indian Wars to fight Americans in earnest. So Brits were total losers. All expences and sacrifices made to preserve English Language on the North American continent were in vain.

2) Revolution (it's not exactly a revolution in classical terms but anyway). It's has succeeded on the margin. Had Germans mercenaries had not drunk too much booze on Christmass, Germany most likely would not have lost two world wars.

3) After Revolution period. 1800 - 1840. Nation did not turn into dictatorship like all and every one South American nation. Americans Invented cotton processing machines, mechanical scythe, and many other things. which became the foundation of the future industrial/farming might.


4) Industrialization period: 1870th - 1900th. Immigration. Savagely stupid exploitation of natural resources. Labor movement. It's the time when the modern USA has been born.

5) The Great Depression and its aftermaths (new deal, WII): the rise of the mass middle class.

6) Dismantling New Deal. Going back to the purer forms of capitalism. Globalization. Deindustrialization. Rise of the corporate power. Changing racial face. 1970th-present.

§outh§tar
08-06-04, 07:09 PM
@ dixonmassey

Could you also rank my five in order of importance for me? And tell me why you made which your number one choice.

tim840
05-31-08, 04:17 PM
Revolutionary War
Civil War
Spanish-American War
World War II
September 11

tim840
05-31-08, 04:18 PM
I think those are the obvious ones.

OilIsMastery
05-31-08, 11:39 PM
1) 1787: Signing of the Constitution
2) 1860s: The Communist American Revolution (The Civil War, Karl Marx, and the unconstitutional Income Tax)
3) 1919: The Death of the Republic (Ratification of 16th Amendment)
4) 1990: Ronald Reagan defeats Soviet Union.
5) 9/12 2001: Ann Coulter declares Holy War

iceaura
06-01-08, 01:51 AM
I have to write an essay on why U.S. history is an important class. Now obviously I could care less but any ideas, anyone? Read Oil Mastery's post, and realize that someone unfamiliar with US History has no way of evaluating it.

So if that someone is a million American citizens, you will have a million voters walking into the voting booths thinking that the Civil War was important as an event in the American Communist Revolution, and that Ann Coulter is responsible for one of the five most important events in US history.

( btw: I wouldn't be surprised if the depression precipitated by the launching of the Iraq War turned out to be the most significant event of our time, and 9/11 ended up merely a footnote to it)

Syzygys
06-01-08, 05:51 AM
Schoolwork assigment!!!! Yuppiee!!!!!

1. death of Elvis Presley
2. Beatles visiting America
3. Final episode of Seinfeld.
4. Paris Hilton goes to jail.
5. Tom Cruise coach moment on Oprah....

I hope I was helpful....

Aurelio226
08-21-09, 07:38 PM
Umm well 9/11
and maybe when Obama was victorious mehh

Anti-Flag
08-21-09, 09:58 PM
Discovery of America
Jamestown Settlement(or at the least the successful colonization of America)
The Declaration Of independance
The Lousiana Purchase
The Civil War

mike47
08-21-09, 10:16 PM
Schoolwork assignment!!!! Yuppie!!!!!

1. death of Elvis Presley
2. Beatles visiting America
3. Final episode of Seinfeld.
4. Paris Hilton goes to jail.
5. Tom Cruise coach moment on Oprah....

I hope I was helpful....
Very helpful.......thanks......!!.;) .

Death of uncle Michael Jackson........you forgot it......:bawl::bawl: !.

mike47
08-21-09, 10:19 PM
and maybe when Obama was victorious mehh
I never thought a black man with a Muslim father could be a president of the USA.
How wrong I was ! . ;);) .

Rick
08-24-09, 08:56 AM
We're talking modern or ancient?

Modern : 1.) 9/11 2.) Cuban Missile crisis. 3.) Man lands on Moon! 4.) Birth of PC and revolution that followed. 5.) Birth of Internet and its crazy growth!

Ancient : 1.) Texas annexation 2.) Monroe doctrine 3.) President Ab Lincoln sworn in and his policies. 4.) Alaska Purchase.

Rick

Anti-Flag
08-24-09, 11:20 AM
We're talking modern or ancient?

Modern : 1.) 9/11 2.) Cuban Missile crisis. 3.) Man lands on Moon! 4.) Birth of PC and revolution that followed. 5.) Birth of Internet and its crazy growth!

Ancient : 1.) Texas annexation 2.) Monroe doctrine 3.) President Ab Lincoln sworn in and his policies. 4.) Alaska Purchase.

Rick

I love the way you yanks consider those things "ancient". :p

WarAgainstError
08-24-09, 02:49 PM
formation

Fraggle Rocker
08-24-09, 09:31 PM
1. death of Elvis Presley. . . .Your list is more than a little flippant, but I'm glad somebody finally got this thread out of its rut. American culture is now the dominant culture on this planet. I think it's reasonable that this list include at least one cultural event (if not more) rather than only political and military events.The development of rock and roll music in the 1950s. It's now the soundtrack for most of the world, if you include its offshoots like rap and reggae. The dawn of television. The technology was first demonstrated in the 1920s but it didn't become a commercial utility until after WWII. The dawn of radio. The science was figured out in the 19th century but radio stations became a staple of American life in the 1920s. The birth of jazz early in the 20th century. Built upon ragtime and the blues, it's a uniquely American music orignated largely by Afro-Americans. Almost every major style of music since then is a sub-genre of jazz, including Dixieland, swing, bebop, bluegrass and the various forms of rock and roll. The recording of music in the late 19th century. We now live in a world in which music from every era and in every style, composed and performed by the most acclaimed professionals, is available anywhere, any time, over headphones or loudspeakers, practically free.

superstring01
08-26-09, 09:05 AM
9/11
Pearl Harbor/WWII
Civil War
Louisiana Purchase
Declaration of Independence

~String

Orleander
08-26-09, 09:10 AM
Revolutionary War
Civil War
Lousiana Purchase
Passing of the 19th Amendment
Civil Rights movement

WarAgainstError
08-26-09, 09:45 AM
What about the formation of Hollywood. Hollywood has indoctrinated millions worldwide and these indoctrinated peoples are all tuned into the Hollywood (American) culture.

Superpowers like America just export their TV inot countries and the people of that country are singin to the American tune in no time at all.

So Hollywood is worth a think!

Asguard
08-26-09, 10:11 AM
how come no one has mentioned Martin Luthur King's speach?

Orleander
08-26-09, 10:14 AM
how come no one has mentioned Martin Luthur King's speach?

because its not in the top five things? :shrug:

I want to change my list. Remove Civil Rights Movement and change it to Kittyhawk/Wright brothers.

Anti-Flag
08-26-09, 10:14 AM
how come no one has mentioned Martin Luthur King's speach?

because we're all racist.

Asguard
08-26-09, 10:17 AM
as an outsider i would have said

Declaration of Independence
Lincons actions
Kennedy's presidency and assination
Martin Luthur King's speach
and Obama's presidency

Orleander
08-26-09, 10:22 AM
what did MLK's speech change? It was a great speech, but what did it change?

Asguard
08-26-09, 10:30 AM
you think political change comes quickly?

Its a steam roller, not a bubble car. It takes a huge build up to start it rolling but once it starts its hard to stop

I was watching a program on the evolution of English law yesterday and they were talking about 2 men, one a parlimentarian and the other a judge. The MP walked up to the king (Henry 8) and DEMANDED that free speach be granted to palimentarians. His speach was quite inspiring but it took 100? years before it would become a reality. However it put the issue into the peoples eyes, without that who knows if Free speach would exist as an ideal even in the US.

The Chief Justice of the High court made a speach that a) the king was not the law and b) (and most importantly) NO one was above the law (the golden metwand). Years latter this same principle which he first stated was used to excute a king and gave birth to the republic of england (which didnt last long) and the supremicy of parliment (which DID last eventually right up until this day)

The fact that nither of these speaches changed things when they were stated doesnt change the fact that without them the world could well be a very different place not just for england but for the whole world, including the US

Asguard
08-26-09, 10:42 AM
BTW, the program i was watching was this

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/C/crime-and-punishment/programme-guide.html

Programme 3: New King on the Block

Meursalt
08-28-09, 08:03 AM
as an outsider i would have said

Declaration of Independence
Lincons actions
Kennedy's presidency and assination
Martin Luthur King's speach
and Obama's presidency

As another outsider...

Firstly, The migration of some English to America has to be more important than anything else, because without that none of the other events would have transpired.
The Declaration of Independance was dependant upon that event, so we'd move that to number two.

Kennedy was a complete asshole. Read up on him before you comment. His policies might have worked when considering internal US politics, but in terms of world politics he was the instigator of, or complicit in, a great many heinous things. Do you really think he was a hero where the Cuban Missile Crisis was concerned? Or Haiti?

Martin Luther King was only a figurehead for a movement that came into existence before him, and went on without him. It is such a pity that humans seem to require a common point of reference before anything makes sense to them.

Obamas Presidency?
Well. It appears that we have to give creedence to what a man is before we assess what he has done.
Racism. If only those who hated it truly understood it.

Fraggle Rocker
08-29-09, 07:01 PM
how come no one has mentioned Martin Luthur King's speach?There were many highlights of the civil rights movement and that was just one of them.
Kennedy was a complete asshole. Read up on him before you comment. His policies might have worked when considering internal US politics, but in terms of world politics he was the instigator of, or complicit in, a great many heinous things. Do you really think he was a hero where the Cuban Missile Crisis was concerned? Or Haiti?How about Vietnam? All of us Flower Children thought we had a young hip guy in the White House who was all for Love and Peace like we were. Then he died and we began to look more closely at the legacy of the Kennedy administration, and discovered that the U.S. armed forces were now participating in another country's civil war. Apparently we did not learn our lesson in Korea.
Obama's Presidency? Well. It appears that we have to give creedence to what a man is before we assess what he has done.Naw. It didn't work that way for Ted Kennedy.
Racism. If only those who hated it truly understood it.All of your rhetoric notwithstanding, Obama's election is a milestone in American history. I don't know if it's one of the top five milestones, but it is a milestone.

mike47
08-30-09, 11:08 AM
what did MLK's speech change? It was a great speech, but what did it change?
His assassination was a historic event too .

iceaura
09-13-09, 02:37 PM
Somewhere in the top few, certainly far above 9/11, would be the immigration of the Irish fleeing the Potato Famine.

Among other effects, that broke the back of racial slavery - the race based maintenance of a laboring class deprived of political power - both in the established black and incipient yellow arrangements.

awesomeppl
04-28-11, 01:04 PM
here are some important events in our history
number one my birth duh:)
number two 9-11:bawl:
number three- my boy Justin Bieber ahahahah:jawdrop:
number 4- fire!!!
number 5 Jesus/ easter!

Cifo
04-28-11, 04:01 PM
After America had won its independence, Pedro Pablo Abarca de Bolea (the 10th Count of Aranda) wrote a letter to his Spanish king in which he uttered this prophecy about America:

This federal republic is born a pygmy. A day will come when it will be a giant, even a colossus, formidable in these countries. Liberty of conscience, the facility for establishing a new population on immense lands, as well as the advantages of the new government...


1. Bill of Rights — Essential freedoms and a bold beginning which would allow this "pygmy" to become a "colossus".

2. Territorial acquisitions west of Mississippi River & of Alaska / The Westward Expansion / Homesteading — Securing and populating the continent, including both coasts.

3. The Patent Act of 1790 — For the promotion of the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.

4. The Emancipation Proclamation — For whatever reason, America was slow relative to the rest of the world to recognize this basic human right in all people.

5. The first manned landing on the moon -OR- The first use of nuclear weapons on people — A massive, stunning and first-time-a-success scientific endeavor unique to America and yet to be duplicated by any other country for at least 40 years. One we wish other nations all the best in attempting, the other we wish never again to do or even to witness.

leopold
04-28-11, 11:00 PM
. . . give me what you think are the five most important events in US history.
1. drafting of the constitution.
2. the bill of rights.
3. the civil war.
4. pearl harbor.
5. moon landing.


Briefly explain why each was important . . .
that's your job.

jmpet
04-29-11, 12:39 AM
The concept of inalieable rights, which turned into the Declaration of Independence.

Andrew Jackson finishing off the British for good in New Orleans, for once and for all.

The US involvement in World War Two

The 1950's boom from/of/thanks to mass production

The end of the Cold War

G. F. Schleebenhorst
05-18-11, 11:16 AM
1) Nuking children
2) Nuking children, in a different city
3) Nuking women
4) Nuking women, in a different city
5) Nuking old ladies in two separate cities.

fedr808
05-18-11, 11:49 AM
1) Nuking children
2) Nuking children, in a different city
3) Nuking women
4) Nuking women, in a different city
5) Nuking old ladies in two separate cities.

http://images.media.nscdn.com/index.php?src=http://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/4630476/Cant-tell-if-trolling-or-just-very-stupid.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Futurama-Fry&size=400x1000

Asguard
05-18-11, 12:04 PM
1) Nuking children
2) Nuking children, in a different city
3) Nuking women
4) Nuking women, in a different city
5) Nuking old ladies in two separate cities.

Who cares what there gender was? They all died screaming just the same. Does gender matters when radiation is causing your skin to burn off a week latter? When you have 10 days of of constant vomiting before you die?

Don't think having tits and internal reproductive organs made there deaths anymore horrific

G. F. Schleebenhorst
05-18-11, 01:06 PM
The point is, the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki's women and children was one of, (if not THE most) the most significant events in US history as it marked the transition from pestered isolationists, to global meddlers.

Asguard
05-18-11, 05:05 PM
The point is, the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki's women and children was one of, (if not THE most) the most significant events in US history as it marked the transition from pestered isolationists, to global meddlers.
Once again, who cares if they have tits?

nietzschefan
05-18-11, 05:52 PM
Jim Bridger

Orleander
05-18-11, 06:04 PM
Once again, who cares if they have tits?

unlike you, most people feel that women and children are the most vulnerable a lot of societies. Especially in WWII Japan.

nietzschefan
05-18-11, 06:19 PM
The point is, the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki's women and children was one of, (if not THE most) the most significant events in US history as it marked the transition from pestered isolationists, to global meddlers.

Maybe might want to make that point with the Oil Embargo on Japan. Or the Embargo on Germany in WWI. ...hmm actually Jefferson(the king of "isolationalism") performed an embargo himself that lead to the war of 1812.

Orleander
05-18-11, 06:39 PM
Revolutionary War
Civil War
Lousiana Purchase
Passing of the 19th Amendment
Civil Rights movement

I want to change Civil war to inventing birth control

Asguard
05-18-11, 06:43 PM
unlike you, most people feel that women and children are the most vulnerable a lot of societies. Especially in WWII Japan.

Unlike you I don't think a vagina makes you in any way special. Women want equality right up till it is detrimental to them. And I think radiation sickness makes EVERYONE pritty vunerable, if anything men are more vunerable because the testies are more exposed than the overies but when your talking about 4 grays as far away as 1km it doesn't matter what gender you are your just fucked and having balls doesn't protect you at all

Asguard
05-18-11, 06:45 PM
I want to change Civil war to inventing birth control

And the US can claim this how? The first evidence of birth control I believe were condoms from the Roman empire. Forget is they were sheep or goat intestines or skin or what but *shrug*

Orleander
05-18-11, 06:47 PM
Unlike you I don't think a vagina makes you in any way special. Women want equality right up till it is detrimental to them. And I think radiation sickness makes EVERYONE pritty vunerable, if anything men are more vunerable because the testies are more exposed than the overies but when your talking about 4 grays as far away as 1km it doesn't matter what gender you are your just fucked and having balls doesn't protect you at all

we are talking WWII Japan you dork. How many women were in combat in the Pacific theatre? The bombs were dropped on civilians in cities where most of the population was not fighting aged men. Kill a bunch of soldiers, so what. Kill a bunch of civilian women and children, its a big deal. DUH!
Jeez, you sure do get bent over vaginas and tits. :rolleyes:

Orleander
05-18-11, 06:48 PM
And the US can claim this how? The first evidence of birth control I believe were condoms from the Roman empire. Forget is they were sheep or goat intestines or skin or what but *shrug*

really? I have to say birth control pill for you. Fine Asguard, the inventing the birth control pill for women with tits and vaginas.

quadraphonics
05-18-11, 07:04 PM
Then he died and we began to look more closely at the legacy of the Kennedy administration, and discovered that the U.S. armed forces were now participating in another country's civil war. Apparently we did not learn our lesson in Korea.

Except the "lesson" in Korea wasn't about avoiding participation in somebody else's civil war. That part of the Korean War was a stunning success, for the USA. The instructive part was where the great power next door then intervened in response to said dramatic success (indeed, some historians go so far as to suggest that the Korean War was engineered by Mao exactly as a pretext for a confrontation between the PLA and US forces).

And to that, you'll notice some very salient differences in how Sino-US relations figured into the outcomes of the wars in question. We got out of Vietnam exactly by flipping China to our side. In Korea we pursued an overtly hostile relationship with China and, lo and behold, our troops are still there.

Asguard
05-18-11, 07:22 PM
Wrong again, the first group to discover that steroidal hormons inhibited ovulation were a EROUPEAN pharmaceutical company, probably full of the kinds of MEN you think are so unimportant that it doesn't matter if you nuke them.

Bells
05-18-11, 11:29 PM
Once again, who cares if they have tits?

To explain this..

The majority of those in those cities were women and children and elderly - ie they were innocent and unarmed civilians as most of the abled bodied males were fighting in the war.

The weapons were not dropped on soldiers in battle. They were dropped on their wives and children and parents back home. Can you see the distinction?

Asguard
05-18-11, 11:47 PM
Bells your arguing in another thread that civillans are by definition innocent and yet here you want to argue that to be innocent you have to have a pair of tits, okay lets test that.

Rank the legitimacy of targets: single parent father with his kid at junior football, Pauline Hanson (okay just threw her in for kicks), gillard and that female US army truck driver who so much resorces was spent rescuing in Iraq

Bells
05-18-11, 11:51 PM
Bells your arguing in another thread that civillans are by definition innocent and yet here you want to argue that to be innocent you have to have a pair of tits, okay lets test that.


Do you read what is typed or do you only see what you want to see?

I never said to be a victim you had to have breasts. I was clarifying that the majority of the victims were actually women and children and the elderly - ie non-combatants and innocent civilians who were the most vulnerable in that society at that time because they were essentially unprotected against such an attack.

Do you understand now?

Asguard
05-18-11, 11:55 PM
And I'm pointing out there gender is irrelivent. I'm a huge surporter of Angus Huston's plan to get women into the front line combat jobs and the SAS.

quadraphonics
05-19-11, 04:32 PM
The majority of those in those cities were women and children and elderly - ie they were innocent and unarmed civilians as most of the abled bodied males were fighting in the war.

It is overtly sexist to insist that able-bodied women are inherently unsuitable for combat, let's note. Not that Japan (and plenty of other countries besides) didn't endorse such sexism, then and now, but still.

Moreover: why do people keep harping on the distinction between civilians and combatants in the context of modernity's definitive total war? The whole thing about total war is that the distinction between civilian and combatant is greatly reduced, possibly to the point of irrelevancy.

Billy T
05-19-11, 04:41 PM
... The first evidence of birth control I believe were condoms from the Roman empire. ...It is my understanding that there are many references in ancient Greek literature to a wild plant, found on a few of the Greek islands whose tea was an effective birth control agent and in the later literature complaints that it was going extinct or very hard to find and much too expensive.

Asguard
05-19-11, 04:57 PM
It is my understanding that there are many references in ancient Greek literature to a wild plant, found on a few of the Greek islands whose tea was an effective birth control agent and in the later literature complaints that it was going extinct or very hard to find and much too expensive.

Interesting, I hadn't herd of that before

Bells
05-19-11, 07:08 PM
It is overtly sexist to insist that able-bodied women are inherently unsuitable for combat, let's note. Not that Japan (and plenty of other countries besides) didn't endorse such sexism, then and now, but still.
Indeed. I never disagreed with that point.


Moreover: why do people keep harping on the distinction between civilians and combatants in the context of modernity's definitive total war?

I have no idea.

I think those who support the total war scenario seem to view it as an excuse to commit wholesale slaughter of one's enemies or even one's perceived enemies, where mere knowledge or not protesting or trying to overthrow the State because of the war can make you an enemy or no longer deemed a civilian in the context of war.


It is my understanding that there are many references in ancient Greek literature to a wild plant, found on a few of the Greek islands whose tea was an effective birth control agent and in the later literature complaints that it was going extinct or very hard to find and much too expensive.
The herb was called silphion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphion). There are several possibilities given for how it became extinct - from over-grazing by animals who were allowed to feed on it as it improved the meat, to over harvesting and supposed inability to cultivate it.

quadraphonics
05-19-11, 07:14 PM
I have no idea.

I have a suggestion, though: given that the people in question are the same ones who endorse a total-war reading of the scenario when it's Americans dieing, I'd propose that it's a cheap tactic in a game of nationalist baiting.



I think those who support the total war scenario seem to view it as an excuse to commit wholesale slaughter of one's enemies or even one's perceived enemies, where mere knowledge or not protesting or trying to overthrow the State because of the war can make you an enemy or no longer deemed a civilian in the context of war.

You mean the total war scenario of the present? Sure.

But it's interesting that the exact same poster doesn't seem to want to aknowledge that WWII was a total war - was openly aknowledged as such by all sides, at the time - because the same logic would excuse American destruction of Axis civilians. Hence, cheap.

Asguard
05-19-11, 07:40 PM
Actually alot of Germans were hung for the crimes they commutes yet I haven't herd one Allie being charged with so much as rape. Deriliction of duty, going AWOL sure but nothing form crimes they commited. Futhermore Japan has been forced to.apologize for its crimes yet I don't hear so much as an official letter of regret from the UK and US. Hell they are still fighting Australians who seek compensation for the nuclear testing done on our soil (the UK I mean) and no I don't surport what osama did but ts bloddy hard to critizie what they do when they can turn around and list the number of wedings bombed by US troops, the number of cars full of families shot up, the number of dictators including Sudam and now the corupt president karzi, the fact that everytime one of your OWN ALIES like the UK has called Israels actions to account under international law you have just blocked it.

Billy T
05-20-11, 09:36 AM
If the US sinks into deep long-lasting depression (and drags EU with it) via collapse of the dollar due to over production of them then the FEDs' recent policy changes may be the most important event in US history:
http://www.wallstreetdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/ShowMeTheMoney.gifhttp://www.wallstreetdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/StocksLovetheFed.gif
If by some miracle the FED can destroy money equally fast then given that it is so strongly connected to stocks, what do you think happens to the one part of the US economy that is doing well?

quadraphonics
05-20-11, 06:48 PM
I don't surport what osama did but ts bloddy hard to critizie what they do when they can turn around and list the number of wedings bombed by US troops, the number of cars full of families shot up, the number of dictators including Sudam and now the corupt president karzi,

Except the complaint is exactly that the people Osama does stuff to, are not quite the same people that make the decisions he turns around and complains about.

Bottom line is that if you're going to accept the logic that there are no civilians in a democracy, then what we're left with is not a question of law and justice, but a brutal struggle for survival and dominance. If those are the terms of engagement, why would anybody care about being a hypocrit? Total wars aren't won by impressing some judge with your ethical consistency. They're won by employing unrestrained violence on an industrial scale.

So you should think carefully about exactly what sort of terms you prefer said conflicts to be couched in, and exercise caution in ensuring that your argumentative positions are consistent with that. You can't argue total war one minute, and international legal arbitration the next.


the fact that everytime one of your OWN ALIES like the UK has called Israels actions to account under international law you have just blocked it.

Well, there was that time where OUR OWN ALLIES the UK and France teamed up with Israel to launch an illegal invasion of Egypt to sieze control of the Suez Canal, and the USA pulled the carpet out from under them and forced them to withdraw. So, not "everytime."

superstring01
05-20-11, 08:34 PM
You can't argue total war one minute, and international legal arbitration the next.

Especially when that person has made claims that his own grandfather was "ILLEGALLY" nuked by Americans during WWII. As if, his logic didn't apply to Americans previous to WWII.

One could simply substitute parties in his statement (using reasonably correct spelling): "I don't support what [Truman] did but its bloody hard to criticize what they did when [the USA, China, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Burma, Malaysia, the UK, the Netherlands, Australia, New Zealand] can turn around and list the number of [Chinese children massacred, Koreans exterminated, Formosans (Taiwanese) wiped out, Filipinos torched and US & British bases attacked]."

~String

superstring01
05-20-11, 08:42 PM
Actually alot of Germans were hung for the crimes they commutes

Yeah. They lost. And, even more importantly, swaths of Germans got off scott free.


yet I haven't herd one Allie being charged with so much as rape.

Okay. How many Germans were tried for rape, then? Why would the allies turn around and try their own soldiers (political suicide, not that you are capable of understanding that) who just won the most vicious war in history?


but nothing form crimes they commited.

What crimes?


Futhermore Japan has been forced to.apologize for its crimes yet I don't hear so much as an official letter of regret from the UK and US.

The Japanese still teach--to this day--that the nuking of its two cities almost sprang from nowhere. The current mayor of Tokyo wants to cancel any reparations to Koreans and Chinese and wants to go to war with Russia to get Sakhalin Island and the Kurils back. The Japanese government has successfully created a domestic swearing-under-the-carpet of its culpability for starting its half of WWII.

I don't see you bitching about those facts. When you get a little more balanced, then you can complain about those nations that secured your freedom.


you have just blocked it.

You, who? As an Australian, then "you" must be equally guilty of every misdeed your nations has committed, right?

~String

Billy T
05-21-11, 03:04 PM
... The Japanese government has successfully created a domestic swearing-under-the-carpet of its culpability for starting its half of WWII. ... ~StringThat is quite un fair. The Japanese really had no choice but to attack Pearl Harbor. You need to know why they did - as a last chance to survive the attack of the British on their oil life line.

All their oil came thru the St of Malacca, and the Brits had cut it off. They had a major naval base in Singapore and the British Naval high command had assured Churchill that Singapore could not be taken by the Japanese, if they blocked the St of Malacca, but they were wrong. Japan took Singapore, liberated their oil life line and hundreds (thousand?) of Brits fled north into the jungle.

Then in an obvious effort to form an invincible naval battle group to go and rescue the Brits and re-impose the oil blockade, the US assembled the entire Pacific Fleet in Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt having been assured that it was too far from Japanese controlled water to be attacked. That too was wrong.

Japan had less than 90 days of oil left when it attacked in desperation Pearl Harbor as its only hope to survive. They knew that once the US pacific fleet was on its way to Singapore, it was unstoppable and all would be lost.

SUMMARY: Japan distorts history and tries not to blame the US or England for economic reasons, but not nearly as much as the US and England do – but that re-rite of history is what the winners always do.* If Hitler had won WWII, most would believe it was all the fault of the Jews and other degenerate human like forms.

-----------

*The US civil war started because the North did not like the south selling its cotton to England, especially the textile mills running on New England’s water power were upset, so blockaded all southern ports, especially the port of Charleston S. Caroline which was the main one for cotton export (closer to England and at the center of the cotton growing area.) The North’s Fort Sumner is on an island in that harbor and controlled all its shipments. The South had no choice but to try to take that Fort, but you won’t read much about this in history books used in high schools as the North won the war. Slavery was a useful "flag" to wrap this economic struggle in, but had little to do with why there was a war. The “emancipation proclamation” did not come until near the end of the war. By then the Southerners were short of man power and using slaves for their supply line wagons etc. It was really an effort to weaken the South’s ability to resist the North’s forces.

As they say: "Truth is the first causality of war."

quadraphonics
05-23-11, 08:10 PM
That is quite un fair. The Japanese really had no choice but to attack Pearl Harbor. You need to know why they did - as a last chance to survive the attack of the British on their oil life line.

Oh, poor Japan! It's not as if they had done anything to make Britain legitimately hostile to them, like, say, forming an alliance with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, and sticking with it after the outbreak of a world war. No, they were just minding their own business, invading China and the USSR, when mean old Britain decided to beat up on them!


Japan had less than 90 days of oil left when it attacked in desperation Pearl Harbor as its only hope to survive.

And yet, Japan seems to have "survived" not only such losses, but a massive defeat to these same powers.

So you seem to be using "survive" in a peculiar sense here - does it mean anything other than "continue a vicious campaign of imperial expansion?" Because you make it sound like they were fighting for mere national existence, when in fact they were conducting massive, unprovoked aggression all over the region - which is what they needed all the oil for.



They knew that once the US pacific fleet was on its way to Singapore, it was unstoppable and all would be lost.

And they also knew that such was only a matter of time regardless - Pearl Harbor would maybe buy them some time to consolodate, and thereby try to strike a deal with the USA.


*The US civil war started because the North did not like the south selling its cotton to England, [...]Slavery was a useful "flag" to wrap this economic struggle in, but had little to do with why there was a war.

Right, because there's absolutely no relationship between southern plantation slavery and the cotton industry. Indeed, one would have to be a complete sheeple to even suggest that those two issues are one and the same.

Billy T
05-24-11, 10:54 AM
Oh, poor Japan! It's not as if they had done anything to make Britain legitimately hostile to them, like, say, forming an alliance with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, and sticking with it after the outbreak of a world war. No, they were just minding their own business, invading China and the USSR, when mean old Britain decided to beat up on them!...Yes, in the 1930s Japan was ruled by a ruthless and aggressive Military dictatorship that sought to dominate Asia. In early December 1937 Japanese forces captured Nanking (China) and by Christmas, hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians and disarmed soldiers were murdered and 20,000 to 80,000 women were raped. This nearly unprecedented barbaric act still adversely effects relations between Japan and China.

But to understand it one must go further back into history and then find it all started with Great Britain’s domination of the world in the 1800s. To subdue China, clipper ships, filled in strong Indian opium, arrived every few days in Chinese ports, often two at a time. See old etching of two arriving in my post at: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2668027&postcount=358
Britain used opium to illegally annex parts of China (Hong Kong and several other islands) and to introduce hundreds, if not more than 1000 Christian missionaries, neither of which were effectively resisted as most young men were in opium stupors in opium dens the Brits had established and supplied with opium until the late 1800s, when the Boxer Rebellion began:

“... The uprising took place in response to foreign "spheres of influence" in China, with grievances ranging from opium traders, political invasion, economic manipulation, to missionary evangelism. In China, popular sentiment remained resistant to foreign influences, and anger rose over the "unequal treaties" (不平等條約), which the weak Qing state could not resist. There existed growing concerns that missionaries and Chinese Christians could use this decline to their advantage, appropriating lands and property of unwilling Chinese peasants to give to the church. This sentiment resulted in violent revolts against foreign interests. …”

{Billy T notes: “spheres of influence” refers to fact that all of China was dominated by various European countries in the late 1800s who formed an “Alliance” to exploit China and avoid conflicts between Europeans after the Brits suppressed Chinese resistance with Indian opium for about 100 years.} The boxers were defeated with European brutality not to be seen in China again until the Japanese took Nanking:

“…The Guardian journalist John Gittings also claimed that when the Alliance force entered Beijing, "it proceeded to loot, kill and rape with as much ferocity as the Boxers had shown (with the difference that the Boxers looted and killed, but did not rape)."[136] It was reported that Japanese troops were astonished by other Alliance troops raping civlians.[137] Thousands of Chinese women committed suicide. The Daily Telegraph journalist Dr. Dillon stated it was to avoid rape by Alliance forces, and he witnessed the mutilated corpses of Chinese women who were raped and killed by the Alliance troops.[138][139] Japanese officers had brought along Japanese prostitutes to stop their troops from raping Chinese civilians. A foreign journalist, George Lynch, said "there are things that I must not write, and that may not be printed in England, which would seem to show that this Western civilization of ours is merely a veneer over savagery." …”
Both this quote and one above From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion

Finally in early 1900s the “Boxer Protocol” was signed by the Chinese that gave to all the European powers of the alliance and the Japanese, the right to station troops in China, mainly along the railroad lines and in the ports. Some did not exercise this right but the Japanese did and in excess of the quota allowed. This and Japanese night time troop movements caused friction with local Chinese governments, but Japan agree to give prior notice before any troop movements. One night they moved troops to the end of the of the important and historic Marco Polo railroad bridge without prior notice and a Japanese soldier was probably killed by surprised Chinese soldier and promptly buried to hid the body. That was all that the Japanese military dictatorship needed as excuse – It all rapidly went downhill from there:

“… On the night of July 7, 1937, night maneuvers were carried out without prior notice, greatly alarming the local Chinese forces. Chinese troops, thinking an attack was underway, fired a few ineffectual rifle shots, leading to a brief exchange of fire at approximately 23:00. When a Japanese soldier failed to return to his post, … {The Chinese said:} Japan had violated China's sovereignty by conducting maneuvers without advance notice, and refused the Japanese demand for entry into Wanping {to search for their missing soldier}. However, {Chinese general} Qin said that he would order Chinese troops stationed at Wanping to conduct a search on their own with an attached Japanese officer. … while both sides prepared their investigators, a unit of Japanese infantry attempted to breach Wanping's defences and were repulsed. … At around 03:30 on the morning of 8 July, Japanese reinforcements in the form of four mountain guns and a company of machine gunners arrived from nearby Fengtai. The Chinese also rushed an extra division of troops to the area. At around 04:50, two Japanese investigators were allowed into Wanping. However, notwithstanding the presence of the Japanese investigators within the town, the Japanese Army opened fire with machine guns at around 05:00. Japanese infantry backed with armored vehicles attacked the Marco Polo Bridge, along with a modern railroad bridge to the southeast of town. Colonel Ji Xingwen led the Chinese defenses with about 1000 men, with orders to hold the bridge at all costs. After inflicting severe casualties, the Japanese forces partially overran the bridge and its vicinity in the afternoon, but the reinforced Chinese soon outnumbered the Japanese. Taking advantage of mist and rain on the morning of 9 July, the Chinese were able to retake the bridge by 06:00. …”
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo_Bridge_Incident

SUMMARY: The pacific part of WWII really was the end result of English abuse / destruction of China to introduce Christianity, control its wealth / trade, and confiscate parts of it (Honk Kong, being the most important) with 100 years of nearly free distribution of strong India opium. The settlement of the Boxer Rebellion authorized limited Japanese occupation and divided China in zones of control by several European Nations.
The Japanese army initially brought their own prostitutes, but soon learned from the westerners the economy of raping local women. They also moved troops without authorization one night to the Marco Polo bridge. That surprised Chinese forces defending it so they open fire upon the Japanese. One of the Japanese soldiers was never seen again and this escalated into war between the Chinese and the Japanese in less than a week.

If not by this incident, a war between them would have found some other trigger as Japan was ruled by an aggressive military dictatorship, seeking to dominate Asian, but that would not have been possible, or even attempted against a strong China, if the Brits had not destroyed the Chinese nation with opium and superior military forces to annex Chinese land at will and support the Christian missionaries. Thus, in one way a long time ago or another way more recently with the blockade of the St. of Malacca, Britain, with no provocation to its self, caused WWII in the Pacific to follow from its actions.

.

quadraphonics
05-24-11, 07:16 PM
If not by this incident, a war between them would have found some other trigger as Japan was ruled by an aggressive military dictatorship, seeking to dominate Asian, but that would not have been possible, or even attempted against a strong China, if the Brits had not destroyed the Chinese nation with opium and superior military forces to annex Chinese land at will and support the Christian missionaries. Thus, in one way a long time ago or another way more recently with the blockade of the St. of Malacca, Britain, with no provocation to its self, caused WWII in the Pacific to follow from its actions.


That makes no sense at all. As you say in your own supporting text, Chinese weakness was a precondition of British imperialism there, not a product of it (this being typical of imperialism). The lack of a strong China is due to China's centuries of self-imposed isolation and stagnance - the imperialism (both European and Japanese) was a symptom of a weak China, not it's cause.

Moreover, using this sort of "logic," one can equivalently argue that any number of different actors "caused" WWII with no provocation to themselves. Which I suppose is fine, so long as you include some disclaimer that the ultimate causes of WWII are manifold, and saying that one party "caused" them is not exclusive of saying that various other parties also "caused" them.

nietzschefan
05-24-11, 07:19 PM
If the US sinks into deep long-lasting depression (and drags EU with it) via collapse of the dollar due to over production of them then the FEDs' recent policy changes may be the most important event in US history:
http://www.wallstreetdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/ShowMeTheMoney.gifhttp://www.wallstreetdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/StocksLovetheFed.gif
If by some miracle the FED can destroy money equally fast then given that it is so strongly connected to stocks, what do you think happens to the one part of the US economy that is doing well?

Those charts are a fuckin affidavit to a CRIME.

Start demanding gold for a paycheck people, look how a government can easily and quickly 1/4 your fucking income and savings!

sniffy
05-26-11, 09:42 AM
1. Me being borned.
The rest is history.

delaford321
05-26-11, 09:59 AM
I think the Civil war should definitely be in the top 5. I'm not choosing sides, but imagine if the south had won...we would not necessarily be the "united" states today....wonder what that would have been like?

sniffy
05-26-11, 10:18 AM
1. The Alaskan landbridge

Billy T
05-26-11, 02:02 PM
I think the Civil war should definitely be in the top 5. I'm not choosing sides, but imagine if the south had won...we would not necessarily be the "united" states today....wonder what that would have been like?Possibly better for both US1 & US2 and the world. I.e. US1 & US2 would be more homogenous and possibly governable (could at least agree on budgets, etc.)

For the world neither alone could try to dominate others so much. Probably could not work together to make wars, invasions, etc. of others as each would think the other was not paying its fair share of the cost.

For real chance of success, However, I think we would need to give everything west of the Mississippi back to France and Russia. Let them try to cope with California's nuts and debt, etc. The USA is too broke to bail out CA. I wonder how much Russia would pay to get Alaska back - probably not enough to make much of a dent in the 14 trillion dollar debt. We could get at least a trillion more for it if Sahra Palin was removed first from it (I think) as she liked to spy on Russia

leopold
05-26-11, 04:27 PM
The weapons were not dropped on soldiers in battle. They were dropped on their wives and children and parents back home. Can you see the distinction?
hiroshima was a major military installation that housed thousands of men preparing to enter the war.

hiroshima was targeted because the primary objective was obscured by overcast.

also remember that there are no rules or laws in war, as a matter of fact war can be thought of as a complete collapse of civility.

also, why all the hoopla about hiroshima? the fire bombings of tokyo caused much more damage and death than the hiroshima bombing.

quadraphonics
05-26-11, 04:37 PM
hiroshima was a major military installation that housed thousands of men preparing to enter the war.

The military value of Hiroshima was that several arms of the Japanese military were headquartered there, and it was an important transshipment and logistics center for supplying the Japanese war effort.

The strategic value of Hiroshima included all of that, and the damage that could be done to the broader Japanese economy and national will by destroying it. The conflict was a total war, so this is arguably a legitimate basis on which to target a city, including its civilian population.


also remember that there are no rules or laws in war,

Sure there are. But there are even fewer in a total war. In particular, the rule about not targetting civilians becomes weak or even absent, as the distinction between military and civilian is broken down.


also, why all the hoopla about hiroshima? the fire bombings of tokyo caused much more damage and death than the hiroshima bombing.

It's a single big, sexy event that ties into the subsequent US and global political consciousness in a way that conventional bombing does not.

Billy T
05-26-11, 05:23 PM
... hiroshima was targeted because the primary objective was obscured by overcast. ... also, why all the hoopla about hiroshima? The fire bombings of Tokyo caused much more damage and death than the hiroshima bombing.Yes. Those clouds almost make me think there is a god who enters into our daily lives occasionally. The primary target was Kyoto, chosen as it had never been bombed. Kyoto is more than 1000 year old. A center of learning (several universities) and high culture with little industry and less military significance.

I don't know if you are correct or not about deaths and firebombing of Tokyo. I read a book Fire and the air war* many years ago. It is about the planning for the raid on Dresden. A dozen or so highly educated men, experts in probability calculations were sequestered in a military barrack in or near London for several weeks (with two guards at the door 24/7) Their job was to determine the "optimum" mix of bomb types to insure the city burned to the ground. (High explosives to make debris in the streets that would burn and block fire trucks, etc. incendiary bombs and what fraction of them should have parachuts with hooks that would catch on the roofs rain gutters etc.) How many minutes after the HE bombs were dropped before the incendiary bombs should be released? How long after those with parachuts should the fast fall incendiary bombs be dropped, etc.? What was the desired pattern and density of each. etc.? Should the parachut incendiary bombs be the first dropped and others guide on their pattern, if wind? etc.? It is a complex uncertain problem.

These skilled mathematicians were feed and given a little coal, but could not leave the barrack until done. The thin-walled, un-insulated, barrack was very cold and they went on strike for more coal - saying that their fingers were so cold they could not hold pencil to calculate with. This problem in a few days reached all the way up to Churchill who with some anger said: "Give them their God dam coal !!!" and the calculations resumed.

Dresden too was chosen as it had never been bombed before - too far to the east for bombers to go from airfields the allies controlled earlier in the war. The raid was late in the war with no immediate military significance - Germany was already essentially defeated. The real purpose was to impress Stalin at the soon to come Yalta meetings which would decide the fate of nations the Germans had occupied.

For me this has always been the epitome of misuse of education. They did their job well - made the only definite firestorm of the war - the city burned for days and many who took shelter in the bomb shelters, died for lack of oxygen in air, and then, in some shelters, had their body fat rendered from their bodies to form pools of congealed fat on the floor as with days of fire above, many shelters became ovens. Almost all who were in the city when the bombs began to fall died.

------------
* I don’t know if you can still find a copy of this book, but if you can (and don’t get disturbed too easily), read it. The un-needed Dresden raid was a war crime, far greater than Heroshima, as it had no effect on WWII and probably little on Stalin; But of course only defeated Germans faced justice at Nierenberg.

leopold
05-29-11, 07:16 PM
Sure there are. But there are even fewer in a total war.
no, there are no laws in war.
you cannot be prosecuted for machine gunning the survivors of the ship you just sank.
you cannot be prosecuted for murdering civilians.

but, after rethinking this there is at least one law, you cannot attack under false colors. the only real law i am aware of.

leopold
05-29-11, 07:18 PM
I don't know if you are correct or not about deaths and firebombing of Tokyo.

there is plenty that will support what i have said.

Billy T
05-29-11, 08:00 PM
there is plenty that will support what i have said.I don't doubt that Tokyo was bombed or that there were many fires produced with a large number of deaths. My doubts were that the total of deaths was greater than those made by the atomic bombs (I am counting the cancer deaths that came even 20 years later, etc.) I also doubt that a genuine firestorm occurred in Tokyo - they are artificial large quasi tornadoes with ~200 mph or more winds.

James R
05-29-11, 08:33 PM
no, there are no laws in war.
you cannot be prosecuted for machine gunning the survivors of the ship you just sank.
you cannot be prosecuted for murdering civilians.

The recent arrest of Ratko Mladic suggests differently.

leopold
05-29-11, 08:55 PM
The recent arrest of Ratko Mladic suggests differently.
the military has its own code of justice called the UCMJ (uniform code of military justice).
if he was arrested under civil proceedings then he cannot be tried for anything military.

leopold
05-29-11, 08:57 PM
I don't doubt that Tokyo was bombed or that there were many fires produced with a large number of deaths. My doubts were that the total of deaths was greater than those made by the atomic bombs (I am counting the cancer deaths that came even 20 years later, etc.) I also doubt that a genuine firestorm occurred in Tokyo - they are artificial large quasi tornadoes with ~200 mph or more winds.
i was kind of hoping you would peruse the subject yourself but . . .
http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=600&q=fire+bombing+of+tokyo+during+world+war+2&btnG=Google+Search

Billy T
05-30-11, 09:19 AM
i was kind of hoping you would peruse the subject yourself but . . .
http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=600&q=fire+bombing+of+tokyo+during+world+war+2&btnG=Google+SearchThanks for the links. I have huge memory store so seldom search. One of your links confirms what I suspected / remembered (without even counting the later cancer deaths): Hiroshima raid was the worst in Japan in WWII. BTW the non-nuclear totally needless Dresden raid with its undisputed, and carefully planned firestorm, killed about the same number as the Hiroshima nuclear raid did.

"... Museum Recalls Tokyo Firebombing - A survivor of the U.S. attack {The largest Toyko fire bombing raid on March 10, 1945 by "hundreds" of B-29s}, which killed 100,000, started the project to educate younger people. ... Historians estimate that 140,000 people were killed in Hiroshima ..."

From: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0310-01.htm

leopold
05-30-11, 09:10 PM
Thanks for the links.
no problem.

I have huge memory store so seldom search.
yes, i'm sure you do.

One of your links confirms what I suspected / remembered (without even counting the later cancer deaths): Hiroshima raid was the worst in Japan in WWII.
this will be the last word from me on this.
70 to 80 thousand japanese lost their lives with with the aug 6 dropping of the atomic bomb
approximately 4.7 sq. miles of the city was destroyed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
compare that with:
80 to 200 thousand japanese lost their lives in the firebombing of tokyo on march 9-10 1945.
almost 17 sq. miles of the city was destroyed.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/tokyo.htm

kx000
07-22-11, 02:53 PM
Lets see.

1. Defeating England and gaining independence as a nation (not as a individual)
2. The invention of the cotton gin
3. The abolition of slavery
4. Bringing California into the union/ Gold rush/ completion of the railway
5. The Assination of JFK, and 9/11, both unsolved cases as far as im concerned.
6. The Patriot Act. For all the wrong reasons. As a nation built on Liberty, this Act is a complete JOKE.
7. Nuking Japan/ Ending WW2
8. Completion of the Panama Canal
9. The great depression/ FDR conquering it. What have we learned America? Not a damn thing.
10. George W. Bush is elected president with less than 50% of the vote.