Five most important events in US History

Discussion in 'History' started by §outh§tar, Aug 4, 2004.

  1. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    Possibly better for both US1 & US2 and the world. I.e. US1 & US2 would be more homogenous and possibly governable (could at least agree on budgets, etc.)

    For the world neither alone could try to dominate others so much. Probably could not work together to make wars, invasions, etc. of others as each would think the other was not paying its fair share of the cost.

    For real chance of success, However, I think we would need to give everything west of the Mississippi back to France and Russia. Let them try to cope with California's nuts and debt, etc. The USA is too broke to bail out CA. I wonder how much Russia would pay to get Alaska back - probably not enough to make much of a dent in the 14 trillion dollar debt. We could get at least a trillion more for it if Sahra Palin was removed first from it (I think) as she liked to spy on Russia
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2011
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. leopold Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    17,455
    hiroshima was a major military installation that housed thousands of men preparing to enter the war.

    hiroshima was targeted because the primary objective was obscured by overcast.

    also remember that there are no rules or laws in war, as a matter of fact war can be thought of as a complete collapse of civility.

    also, why all the hoopla about hiroshima? the fire bombings of tokyo caused much more damage and death than the hiroshima bombing.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,391
    The military value of Hiroshima was that several arms of the Japanese military were headquartered there, and it was an important transshipment and logistics center for supplying the Japanese war effort.

    The strategic value of Hiroshima included all of that, and the damage that could be done to the broader Japanese economy and national will by destroying it. The conflict was a total war, so this is arguably a legitimate basis on which to target a city, including its civilian population.

    Sure there are. But there are even fewer in a total war. In particular, the rule about not targetting civilians becomes weak or even absent, as the distinction between military and civilian is broken down.

    It's a single big, sexy event that ties into the subsequent US and global political consciousness in a way that conventional bombing does not.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    Yes. Those clouds almost make me think there is a god who enters into our daily lives occasionally. The primary target was Kyoto, chosen as it had never been bombed. Kyoto is more than 1000 year old. A center of learning (several universities) and high culture with little industry and less military significance.

    I don't know if you are correct or not about deaths and firebombing of Tokyo. I read a book Fire and the air war* many years ago. It is about the planning for the raid on Dresden. A dozen or so highly educated men, experts in probability calculations were sequestered in a military barrack in or near London for several weeks (with two guards at the door 24/7) Their job was to determine the "optimum" mix of bomb types to insure the city burned to the ground. (High explosives to make debris in the streets that would burn and block fire trucks, etc. incendiary bombs and what fraction of them should have parachuts with hooks that would catch on the roofs rain gutters etc.) How many minutes after the HE bombs were dropped before the incendiary bombs should be released? How long after those with parachuts should the fast fall incendiary bombs be dropped, etc.? What was the desired pattern and density of each. etc.? Should the parachut incendiary bombs be the first dropped and others guide on their pattern, if wind? etc.? It is a complex uncertain problem.

    These skilled mathematicians were feed and given a little coal, but could not leave the barrack until done. The thin-walled, un-insulated, barrack was very cold and they went on strike for more coal - saying that their fingers were so cold they could not hold pencil to calculate with. This problem in a few days reached all the way up to Churchill who with some anger said: "Give them their God dam coal !!!" and the calculations resumed.

    Dresden too was chosen as it had never been bombed before - too far to the east for bombers to go from airfields the allies controlled earlier in the war. The raid was late in the war with no immediate military significance - Germany was already essentially defeated. The real purpose was to impress Stalin at the soon to come Yalta meetings which would decide the fate of nations the Germans had occupied.

    For me this has always been the epitome of misuse of education. They did their job well - made the only definite firestorm of the war - the city burned for days and many who took shelter in the bomb shelters, died for lack of oxygen in air, and then, in some shelters, had their body fat rendered from their bodies to form pools of congealed fat on the floor as with days of fire above, many shelters became ovens. Almost all who were in the city when the bombs began to fall died.

    ------------
    * I don’t know if you can still find a copy of this book, but if you can (and don’t get disturbed too easily), read it. The un-needed Dresden raid was a war crime, far greater than Heroshima, as it had no effect on WWII and probably little on Stalin; But of course only defeated Germans faced justice at Nierenberg.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 27, 2011
  8. leopold Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    17,455
    no, there are no laws in war.
    you cannot be prosecuted for machine gunning the survivors of the ship you just sank.
    you cannot be prosecuted for murdering civilians.

    but, after rethinking this there is at least one law, you cannot attack under false colors. the only real law i am aware of.
     
  9. leopold Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    17,455
    there is plenty that will support what i have said.
     
  10. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    I don't doubt that Tokyo was bombed or that there were many fires produced with a large number of deaths. My doubts were that the total of deaths was greater than those made by the atomic bombs (I am counting the cancer deaths that came even 20 years later, etc.) I also doubt that a genuine firestorm occurred in Tokyo - they are artificial large quasi tornadoes with ~200 mph or more winds.
     
  11. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    31,639
    The recent arrest of Ratko Mladic suggests differently.
     
  12. leopold Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    17,455
    the military has its own code of justice called the UCMJ (uniform code of military justice).
    if he was arrested under civil proceedings then he cannot be tried for anything military.
     
  13. leopold Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    17,455
    i was kind of hoping you would peruse the subject yourself but . . .
    http://www.google.com/search?client...f tokyo during world war 2&btnG=Google Search
     
  14. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    Thanks for the links. I have huge memory store so seldom search. One of your links confirms what I suspected / remembered (without even counting the later cancer deaths): Hiroshima raid was the worst in Japan in WWII. BTW the non-nuclear totally needless Dresden raid with its undisputed, and carefully planned firestorm, killed about the same number as the Hiroshima nuclear raid did.

    "... Museum Recalls Tokyo Firebombing - A survivor of the U.S. attack {The largest Toyko fire bombing raid on March 10, 1945 by "hundreds" of B-29s}, which killed 100,000, started the project to educate younger people. ... Historians estimate that 140,000 people were killed in Hiroshima ..."

    From: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0310-01.htm
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2011
  15. leopold Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    17,455
    no problem.
    yes, i'm sure you do.
    this will be the last word from me on this.
    70 to 80 thousand japanese lost their lives with with the aug 6 dropping of the atomic bomb
    approximately 4.7 sq. miles of the city was destroyed.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
    compare that with:
    80 to 200 thousand japanese lost their lives in the firebombing of tokyo on march 9-10 1945.
    almost 17 sq. miles of the city was destroyed.
    http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/tokyo.htm
     
  16. kx000 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,426
    Lets see.

    1. Defeating England and gaining independence as a nation (not as a individual)
    2. The invention of the cotton gin
    3. The abolition of slavery
    4. Bringing California into the union/ Gold rush/ completion of the railway
    5. The Assination of JFK, and 9/11, both unsolved cases as far as im concerned.
    6. The Patriot Act. For all the wrong reasons. As a nation built on Liberty, this Act is a complete JOKE.
    7. Nuking Japan/ Ending WW2
    8. Completion of the Panama Canal
    9. The great depression/ FDR conquering it. What have we learned America? Not a damn thing.
    10. George W. Bush is elected president with less than 50% of the vote.
     

Share This Page