Ethics of forced removal of violence from society.

A hypothetical if I may to guage posters reactions.

A message is hand delivered to every world leader simultaneously, it is on a material not unlike paper but has no known Earthly substance with in it.
It is obviously alien to this planet and due to delivery methods [ sudden appearance on the desks of all world leaders as they and witnesses watched]
and also what is incrediby obvious is that the potential of the intelligence behind the message has every capacity to carry out what that message includes. [ it is written in all languages appropriate to the world leader in question.]
The message states unequivocally, and in no uncertain terms that within the next 7 Earth days all ability to use offensive violence against another person will be removed from existence. Only the ability to use defensive violence will be allowed to remain.

1. What would be your reaction to such a message?
   
2. Would you feel your self determination to be violated?
   
3. Is the alien only doing what may take another 2000 years to acheive for us?
   
4. How do you feel about the prospect of "No offensive violence" therefore Global peace?
   
   
   Meaning: no violence can be deliberately committed against another other than in self defense.

They the aliens intend to place a mental/emotional block on this ability so that it does not manifest in Society and with in the persons concerned and do it in a very thorough, complete, wholistic way.
The reason they have given for their intervention is that the Earth is about to be joining the Galactic community and offensive violence is not tolerated.
Which leads to the following ethical dilemma and the main purpose of this thread:

Are they the aliens justifying their own overt form of violence by forcing Humans to change their ways even if it is the last time that violence is used between them and us?

" the reason for the hypothetical is actually about how we tend to justify offensive violence and by posing the hypothetical it should be interesting see how we do."

 

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Why would there be a need for defensive violence ?

 

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If all offensive violence was removed, why would anyone need defensive violence?

***(Just had to throw that out there because it struck me a odd and strange.)

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I think very few people can justify offensive violence in this 21st century civilized world. Terrorists obviously do, and a few others, but most people don't or can't justify committing violence.

However, just to be clear, in my own case, I don't justify offensive violence ....I justify the freedom to do violence if I wanted to. Big difference. If you or anyone takes away my ability to do violence, you're taking away a big part of my freedom. I don't like people taking away my freedom!

Baron Max

 

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I could suggest that there may be a few reasons in this case:
at least one would be that, whilst we as a race may have offensive violence removed other less "fortunate" races may not be so "priviledged".

 

Excellent point Baron. How ever would removing the desire to commit an offensive violent act be the same as removing the ability?
say for example as part of the block they insert a thought routine that simply rationalises offensive violence as very unprofitable or very distasteful so that if you feel the need to you feel like throwing up and can't any way...because it is so repulsive [ extreme example ok]
is this the same thing as removing the ability alltogether?

 

So, what's that mean exactly? ...that they'll be removing my freedoms in little, tiny pieces instead of in one big lump?

No, removing the freedom is ......well, removing the freedom, regardless of how you do it or how nice you are while you're doing it.

Baron Max

 

I understand the reason for the post, however, I think in this instance, the analogy doesn't hold true, because the inherent law of the universe is freewill.

I personally don't feel that self-determination would be violated, because, I believe that they could intervene at such time as they gauge that a significant percentage of the earth's population no longer wishes to focus the "victim/attacker" paradigm into manifestation any longer. There is a in fact a small minority of the earth's ruling elites that control what policies and measures get carried out for the larger majority of the rest of the population, so no, the large majority would not have their self-determination violated, they would in fact be assisted when they are finally ready to wake up and live in a manner in which they were born to be.

That being said, is violence what will be required by the benevolent alien factions wishing to assist the populations wishing to reach their full potential in "becoming"? No, I don't think so. A civilization with advanced technology would have many other options to remove the small minority of the population from the positions of power with out having to resort to outward violence. (neutralization, reprogramming & re-education, removal to other places in the galaxy, etc.) The only violence that they would have to be concerned about is perhaps the violence that these desperate individuals might strike out with against their own human populations as a means of retribution/threat, to maintain their position of power, and to maintain the status quo.

 

I'd think it was preposterous and dismiss it as garbage.

I'd think my way of life was threatned and wouldn't like it.

What WE achieve isn't up to aliens, it is up to US for only we can live with what WE choose to do, not what aliens tell us to do.

It is a nice idea but won't happen for many centuries.

 

Humm.. I understand that this is all hypothetical but why invent extraterrestrial races in order to explain the retention of defensive violence ?

 

What I can't figure out is, if the aliens are so advanced that they can do away with offensive violence, why they don't just zap all our brains and turn us into nice little automotons? Wouldn't that be easier than trying to get our approval?

Baron Max

 

and don't you think the legal system of just about every country attempts to do the same thing with prisons, capital punishment and other retributions?

 

The problem stems for the issue of how the bodies reaction systems work.
Fomr what I gather for example removing violence all together and we end up a dead race.
By maintiaining defensive violence allows the reflexes of the race to maintain sharp and useful.
Vidoe games for example would reflect a defensive violent stance rather than offesive. [which they already do in the main]

Maybe the aliens didn't have much of a choice and only had an "exterminate or assist " option. A form of euthenasia perhaps...
As regards to the sefl determination issue
do you think that the current human legal system is any way different?

 

yep thats a state of denial...

and violence is a way of life I must admit....

Is it up to the legal system to quarrantine us from violent individuals either by capital punishment or imprisonment...etc instead?

How else do you think world peace will be achieved if not for humanities erradication of the desire to be offensively violent?
Can take thousands more years or can happen in 7 days...choose which one...you would prefer...

 

Oh, absolutely and for sure! But the difference is that they don't come right out and ask for our approval like you did! ...LOL!

Baron Max

 

not asking for approval...Barron....there is no ultimatum as it is assumed in the thought experiment that it is going to happen regardless of approval. A forced addiction to violence withdrawal program if you like...

 

do you think the aliens are allowed to be free of overt offensive aggression from humanity?

 

One of the main problems is how rapidly humans can go from simple disagreement to violent actions. We humans simply don't have that innate control ...we're like wild animals in a zoo or something. We're perfectly content to sit in the cage peacefully ....until someone reaches into the cage ....and then we tear his arm off and beat him to death with it.

World peace will happen when all humans think exactly alike on all issues and all actions. Any disagreement triggers a horrid anger in most all humans.

Baron Max

 

There are a few reason I guess, why some people can't sometimes agree to disagree..and allow growthin our opinions...usually a part of the self belief process and tied up with self esteem and ego. [ usually caused by a histoy of living in an abusive environment where dis-empowerment was a common crime againat self.]

 

I think the notion that it is possible to distinguish between offensive violence and defensive violence is ludicrous.

disinterest.

No more than it is normally since societies alread prohibit certain forms of violence.

Such speculation seems pointless.

There is more to peace than a lack of violence.

You might want to rephrase that. Are you trying to say: Are the aliens justified in their overt act of violence in forcing Humans to change their ways if it means an end to further violence both among ourselves and between them and us?

It is considered justified to help the sick, often even if it is against their will and particularly so if not helping would result in their death or even serious impairment in society, which seems to be the case here.

 

I guess I just misunderstood the premise of the original post then. Because what you are proposing then, is to withdrawal the option, and freewill, of all of earth inhabitants, based on the behavior of its elites. This in and of itself is unethical and goes against the laws of the universe, which at its core, is self-determination and free-will.

It would never happen or be allowed. There is no galactic civilization that would dare attempt such a bold enslavement of the human race. This is not assistance. Currently, humanity considers itself a victim of those that are lording over it. Only when it no longer considers itself a victim and throws off its victimization mentality, will it ever be assisted.

The same is true of any population of oppressed citizens in any nation that would like to be "liberated" in a nation on earth. Only when they refuse to stop playing and assuming a victim role, do they gain their freedom. A good example of this is in this thread: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=94949 There was the story of the corporation of Bechtal that demanded owning all the water rights in Bolivia in return for assistance from the IMF and WTO. Their government dutifully signed over the rights. These government actors were not acting for the people however, and when push came to shove, and the people were told that it was illegal to even gather rain water, the people asserted their freewill, and revolted en mass from the regulations. Bechtal fled the country. It is impossible to strip free will from sentient beings for the mistakes of their leaders. Kill them, yes. Consciousness is who we are. Consciousness, free will, IS the essence of being.

I refer you to this post for more information on this subject:
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2317462&postcount=15
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2317563&postcount=25
And this for a full classification and accounting:
http://www.galacticdiplomacy.com/GD-ET-Motivations-2.htm