Will the meek Hinduism survive?

[UltiTruth]

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Then why mention their religions, why not say 2 people, and why was it a case of religious hatred?

You mean I should have said, "15 people were killed by 4 people- the reason: not known"?

Where in their religions does it instruct them to hate the opposing religions.

Are you sure no religion does that?

Anyway, the intention is quoted by you elsewhere.
No it isn’t.

What about this, Jan?

“Atleast 15 Hindu men were killed over a period of a few months, in the city of Hyderabad by a group of 4 muslim youth. The reason?- religious hate.”
It would seem you did.

What is “central” to the Gita is “abandon all varieties of religion and surrender unto Me” (Lord Krishna).

Is this the only center? And my point isn't from Gita?

The point you have made refers to Gods devotees (bhaktas), it is they alone who act for the will of God thereby fulfilling His motive. The karmis, jnanis and yogis act at different levels to fulfil their own motives. If Arjuna did not surrender to Krishna, he also would have acted out of self-interest.

So can Bhaktas resist aggression? And why did Lord Krishna ask Arjuna to fight and not be tolerant?

The philosophy is there to help one know reality, and at each stage of realisation one becomes more aware, if and when one becomes aware, then one is forced to act according to ones knowledge.

So one may act? finally!

Which part of what I said, was fantasy?

The part that one should go philosophical and try to understand the true religion while being battered and taken advantage of!

Thanks.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by UltiTruth
You mean I should have said, "15 people were killed by 4 people- the reason: not known"?

Apart from reason not known, yes, the reason is due to ignorance of ones true position, therefore thinking oneself superior or inferior to another.

Are you sure no religion does that?

That is not an answer.

Is this the only center?

Yes.

And my point isn't from Gita?

Then what is it?

So can Bhaktas resist aggression?

Yes, because they see everything as the mercy of the Lord, this is obviously a very difficult position for ordinary persons, but not for bhaktas. However some bhaktas will not (kshtrya), due to their position in society, which is also bhakti if done in the service of the Lord.

And why did Lord Krishna ask Arjuna to fight and not be tolerant?

Because Arjuna was kashatrya, and by destroying the demonic kuru dynasty he would rid the earth of the overwhelming demonic population, allowing religious principles to be inaugurated for the coming age of kali. This was service to Krishna.

sva-dharmam api caveksya
na vikampitum arhasi
dharmyad dhi yuddhac chreyo 'nyat
ksatriyasya na vidyate

Considering your specific duty as a ksatriya, you should know that there is no better engagemeant for you than fighting on religious principles; and so there is no need for hesitation.

Lord Krishna says;

yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srjamy aham

paritranaya sadhunam
vinasaya ca duskrtam
dharma-samsthapanarthaya
sambhavami yuge yuge

Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I descend Myself.
In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium.

So one may act? finally!

We act from the moment consciousness enters into the fetus, according to Bhagavat Purana.
Acting is the evidence of consciousness/soul.

The part that one should go philosophical and try to understand the true religion while being battered and taken advantage of!

From that statement it is obvious you have misunderstood my replies.
Maybe you should refrain from trying to trip me up.

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[spookz]

Originally posted by UltiTruth
So one may act? finally!

there should be alternatives to state sanctioned violence against
minority anything. having peasants armed with pitch forks roaming the streets should not be an option.
lets hear some ideas. are there orgs working towards reconciliation?

 

[Rick]

Hi Jan,
Yes obviously your language is not Sanskrit.But please would you mind still using correct spellings on the board or may be verifying them before you say it here.Like for example You said Something about Kuru Dynasty,It Kaurav's and not Kurus.I'd be happy to correct you out.


thanks.
bye!

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by zion
Hi Jan,
Yes obviously your language is not Sanskrit.But please would you mind still using correct spellings on the board or may be verifying them before you say it here.Like for example You said Something about Kuru Dynasty,It Kaurav's and not Kurus.I'd be happy to correct you out.


thanks.
bye!

Thanks.

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[UltiTruth]

Jan:

Are you sure no religion does that?[/I]
That is not an answer.

But the answer is an easy one, on a reality basis! And you need to face it.

Apart from reason not known, yes, the reason is due to ignorance of ones true position, therefore thinking oneself superior or inferior to another.

So you take no offence if the intruder is an ignorant- or better still a mad man?

Is this the only center?
Yes.

No
Sri Krishna in Gita says He is everything, and everything everyone does is as per his intentions. This is equally central.

So can Bhaktas resist aggression?
Yes, because they see everything as the mercy of the Lord, this is obviously a very difficult position for ordinary persons, but not for bhaktas. However some bhaktas will not (kshtrya), due to their position in society, which is also bhakti if done in the service of the Lord.

Kshatriya is a division based on duty, not birth in reality. And a bhaktha is not a special person- it means "devotee". So if I am a Kshatriya devotee, with a converted temple before my eyes, tell me what I am I supposed to do, Jan (and beyond the sweet philosophy, please)?

Because Arjuna was kashatrya, and by destroying the demonic kuru dynasty he would rid the earth of the overwhelming demonic population, allowing religious principles to be inaugurated for the coming age of kali.
...fighting on religious principles...
...a decline in religious practice...
...a predominant rise of irreligion...
...to deliver the pious...
...to reestablish the principles of religion...

"religious principles"???!!!- I thought Gita talked about Dharma in the sense of Justice, and Adharma in the sense of anarchy! Isn't Gita one layer above religion, Jan?
To the best of my knowledge, (and as zion pointed out similarly), kuru dynasty hardly has anything to with demonic population. Pandavas and Kauravas were cousins- the war was a family feud based on Dharma.

We act from the moment consciousness enters into the fetus, according to Bhagavat Purana.
Acting is the evidence of consciousness/soul.

You are really being literal, Jan. I am not talking of ACTING in movies either!

Maybe you should refrain from trying to trip me up.

Do I need to do that? But don't get tripped off anyway (read the Gita if needed and be a "Sthitha Pragnya")!
spookz:
State sanctioned violence is never the answer. Fortunately, it was rarely resorted to, in my understanding. Nevertheless, awareness needs to grow. Few Hindus or Muslims know or even care to understand about history and to empathise.
For example, on the current temple issue, I am sure even a muslim would appreciate the plight that the Hindus went through in a certain part of time. If the leaders were not just loud vote-seekers, things would have been very different. Imagine the muslims themselves rebuilding the Ayodhya temple in place of the unused mosque, as a gesture of goodwill. That would provide enough charge for unity for the next 500 years, and make the Hindus permanently cease all further claims for any of the thousands of temples converted!
I remember one muslim leader was in favour of this. And Swamy Sankaracharya is also working for some acceptable solutions.
But for any of this to happen, I think monotheism, that automatically makes everyone else a traitor, is the biggest hassle!
Thanks

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by UltiTruth
But the answer is an easy one,

Then tell me, and lets discuss it.

on a reality basis! And you need to face it.

What reality would this be?

So you take no offence if the intruder is an ignorant- or better still a mad man?

Read my replies again.

No
Sri Krishna in Gita says He is everything, and everything everyone does is as per his intentions. This is equally central.

Now why don’t you give reference of your statement from the Gita regarding “everything everyone does is as per his intentions.”

Kshatriya is a division based on duty, not birth in reality.

Never the less, Arjuna was born a kshatriya.

And a bhaktha is not a special person- it means "devotee".

Bhakta is topsmost special person when they are Krishna devotees.

So if I am a Kshatriya devotee, with a converted temple before my eyes, tell me what I am I supposed to do, Jan (and beyond the sweet philosophy, please)?

What do you want me to tell you, I am not you, you will do whatever is in you heart and mind at the time.

"religious principles"???!!!- I thought Gita talked about Dharma in the sense of Justice, and Adharma in the sense of anarchy! Isn't Gita one layer above religion, Jan?

Dharma means religious principles and also ones eternal occupational position, i.e. rendering service to the Lord. To go against either is adharma.
How do you mean one layer above religion?

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[UltiTruth]

But the answer is an easy one,
Then tell me, and lets discuss it.
If you are telling me that you don't know any monotheistic religions that rule out the possibility of other religions/God/philosophy being true, I cannot help you- either you are too ignorant (which I know you aren't) or are feigning ignorance that I cannot do much about!
Anyways, I don't want this thread to be another 'My religion is "rightest"'- there are enough you can check out yourself!

Sri Krishna in Gita says He is everything, and everything everyone does is as per his intentions. This is equally central.
Now why don’t you give reference of your statement from the Gita regarding everything everyone does is as per his intentions.
Here:
O Arjuna, I am the Atma abiding in the heart of all beings. I am also the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings. (10.20)
I am the beginning, the middle, and the end of the creation, O Arjuna. Among the knowledge I am knowledge of the supreme Self. I am logic of the logician. (10.32)
I am the fraud of the gambler; I am the splendor of the splendid; I am victory (of the victorious); I am resolution (of the resolute); I am the goodness of the good. (10.36)
I am the origin or seed of all beings, O Arjuna. There is nothing, animate or inanimate, that can exist without Me. (See also 7.10 and 9.18) (10.39)

maya thathamidam sarvam jagadavyaktha moorthina
mathyani sarvabhoothani na chaham theshvavasthithaha

mathaha paratharam naanyathkiinchidasthi dhananjaya
mayi sarvamidam protham suthre manigana iva


And did you check out what "Nimitha matra" means, Jan? That answers your query in itself.
...and let me know if you need more on this.

So if I am a Kshatriya devotee, with a converted temple before my eyes, tell me what I am I supposed to do, Jan (and beyond the sweet philosophy, please)?
What do you want me to tell you, I am not you, you will do whatever is in you heart and mind at the time.
I asked you what I should, not what I would. Since you made some categorical statements on ignorance, I would like your opinion in the situation, of course sans pure phiolosphy again!

Dharma means religious principles
Source?

How do you mean one layer above religion?
Gita is not just religion. It is much more, of which religion would be a subset! And do I need to mention this to a Gita expert???!!!

 

[spookz]

o mother india

The air is thick with ugliness and there's the unmistakable stench of fascism on the breeze.' (arundhati roy)

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by UltiTruth
If you are telling me that you don't know any monotheistic religions that rule out the possibility of other religions/God/philosophy being true, I cannot help you

When you say "other religions," are talking about the principles of that religion or peoples veiw of their religion?
If the latter of the two, then fine, I cannot argue with you, but if not, then my question still stands.

Anyways, I don't want this thread to be another 'My religion is "rightest"'- there are enough you can check out yourself!

Where did you get such an idea?

Now why don’t you give reference of your statement from the Gita regarding everything everyone does is as per his intentions.
Here:
O Arjuna, I am the Atma abiding in the heart of all beings. I am also the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings. (10.20)
I am the beginning, the middle, and the end of the creation, O Arjuna. Among the knowledge I am knowledge of the supreme Self. I am logic of the logician. (10.32)
I am the fraud of the gambler; I am the splendor of the splendid; I am victory (of the victorious); I am resolution (of the resolute); I am the goodness of the good. (10.36)
I am the origin or seed of all beings, O Arjuna. There is nothing, animate or inanimate, that can exist without Me. (See also 7.10 and 9.18) (10.39)

Where does it mention everyone does as per His intention, or how have you arrived at this conclusion based on the texts you have quoted??

And did you check out what "Nimitha matra" means, Jan? That answers your query in itself.
...and let me know if you need more on this.

No i haven't, please tell me.

So if I am a Kshatriya devotee, with a converted temple before my eyes, tell me what I am I supposed to do, Jan (and beyond the sweet philosophy, please)?
What do you want me to tell you, I am not you, you will do whatever is in you heart and mind at the time.
I asked you what I should, not what I would. Since you made some categorical statements on ignorance, I would like your opinion in the situation, of course sans pure phiolosphy again!

Dharma means religious principles
Source?

There is no need of source, I will try and explain, dharma refers to the eternal and essential charictaristic of every object, e.g. the essential characteristic of sugar is its sweetness. The dharma of the living entity is one of an eternal relationship with God. Due to our forgetfulness we accept the temproral, illusive material energy as our all in all. Religious principles, sattva guna (mode of goodness) help us to remember our dharma, culminating in love of God, as these principles are not of man, but of God Himself, they are non-different from Him.

How do you mean one layer above religion?
Gita is not just religion. It is much more, of which religion would be a subset!

Who said it was a religion! But in the same breath the whole point of the Gita is that the living entity comes to the realisation that he is part and parcel of the Supreme Whole, God, (and what is the point of religion) and it is therefore in his interest to surrender to that Supreme Entity and abandon all other ideaologys.
Religious principles are not necasserily religion unless the disiplic succession has not been severed from God.

And do I need to mention this to a Gita expert???!!!

EZEE boy, I’m not your enemy.

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[everneo]

So.. Ulti and Jana.. still both of u dodging each-other.. uhh.?

see u next week... lol..

 

[UltiTruth]

EverNeo:
Yes, we need some fun on the Eastern philosophy board too. Don't we?

Jan:

Where does it mention everyone does as per His intention, or how have you arrived at this conclusion based on the texts you have quoted??

Either I am making assumptions or your don't see the obvious, Jan.
And I vote for the latter. And would love to see more votes!!!

EZEE boy, I’m not your enemy.

Of course, friend. And if I sounded any other way, I apologize.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Everneo,

So.. Ulti and Jana.. still both of u dodging each-other.. uhh.?

You are half right, there is some dodging going on, but none of it by me.

Either I am making assumptions or your don't see the obvious, Jan.
And I vote for the latter. And would love to see more votes!!!

So let me see if I have this right, you believe that "religion" show enmity toward other religions, based on mans view of religion?
If this is a correct assumption, then what do you regard as religion?

Of course, friend. And if I sounded any other way, I apologize.

I just got the feeling you were being condescending by refering to me as a "Gita expert" for which there was no need, but i do accept your apology.

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[UltiTruth]

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Everneo,

So.. Ulti and Jana.. still both of u dodging each-other.. uhh.?

You are half right, there is some dodging going on, but none of it by me.

So now you are dodging everneo?

Either I am making assumptions or your don't see the obvious, Jan.
And I vote for the latter. And would love to see more votes!!!

So let me see if I have this right, you believe that "religion" show enmity toward other religions, based on mans view of religion

No

Of course, friend. And if I sounded any other way, I apologize.
I just got the feeling you were being condescending by refering to me as a "Gita expert" for which there was no need, but i do accept your apology.
Love
Jan Ardena. [/B]

Well, I thought you brought in the Gita bit into the thread and also advised to read it!?
And since you brought in the word "Condescending", weren't you the one who used the term "Ignorance" very early in the thread?
Greets

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by UltiTruth
So let me see if I have this right, you believe that "religion" show enmity toward other religions, based on mans view of religion?

No

Nice conversation we nearly had there.

Well, I thought you brought in the Gita bit into the thread and also advised to read it!?

It still does not make me sound like I am an expert, it was a simple request.
Me personally, every time I read the Gita, sincerely, I learn something new, this learning ability is multiplied, when hearing it from a reliable source, it is something like, the more you know, the more you understand how little you know, this is my positon.

And since you brought in the word "Condescending", weren't you the one who used the term "Ignorance" very early in the thread?

Very nice propaganda, you have joined two words which I used, and used them to paint a bad picture, to me this shows that either a) you have not read my posts fully , or b) it doesn’t matter what I say , you have made up your mind.

As far as my understanding of practical ignorance goes, we are all ignorant to some degree or other.

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[kmguru]

Will the meek Hinduism survive?

I think so. It has for 7000 years though a little muddy in the process from Sanatana Dharma...but then again, Hinduism which gave us Vedas, Ramayan, Mahabharat, Gita...is not meek, may be the people are.

 

[UltiTruth]

Oh kmguru,
nice to see you back, after a long time!

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by kmguru
Will the meek Hinduism survive?

I think so. It has for 7000 years though a little muddy in the process from Sanatana Dharma...but then again, Hinduism which gave us Vedas, Ramayan, Mahabharat, Gita...is not meek, may be the people are.

What is hinduism?

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[airavata]

Hinduism is the world's oldest surviving religion. What seperates hinduism from most other religions is that other religions lay great emphasis on converting people of other faiths to that religion. Christianity and Islam spring readily to mind here. Hinduism will never die out. It is a fallaccy to suppose that hindus are meek and tolerate sacrilage to their religion.

Virtous conduct is an important tenet of hinduism. Reincarnattion is something most hindus believe in. Trying to convert people of other faiths to their religion has been the philosophy of christianity and islam, something i completely disagree with. Hinduism is not nearly as much a religion as it is a way of life.

Take the Godhra riots for example. A group of muslims burnt a train compartment full of hindu priests. The chief minister of the state of Gujurat spread false propoganda with the result that many many uneducated hindus believed the muslims of Gujurat were trying to destroy their religion. What followed was a nations shame. Hindu mobs burning, pillaging, killing muslims and muslim settlements.

Like any devout people hindus take offense to any threat to their religion. They are definitley not as fanatical as muslims or as eager as christians to spread their faith but as far as religion is concerned, don't trifle with them.

There's a guy in Bihar, a state of India, who after the Godhra riots believed that muslims were trying to convert hindus to Islam. So, now he rides with a motorcyle gang of around 40 like minded guys and beats up and muslim he sees on the road.

Hinduism will always survive. Whether it spreads to other countries and flourishes couldn't concern us at all. In India, it will always survive and flourish.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by airavata
Hinduism is the world's oldest surviving religion.

With all due respect, what is the hindu religion, and why is the term "hinduism" not mentioned in any vedic literature.

The question i posed, "what is hinduism" was in response to KM's claim that hinduism has been around for 7,000 years, and i have been told that the term "hindu" has been around for only about 2,000 years, and that the root of todays hinduism comes from the original sanatana dharma which was expounded by the viashnav community, via disiplic sucsession, the root of which being Lord Shri Krishna/ Vishnu.

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 15, Verse 15.

Lord Krishna........."I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas I am to be known; indeed I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas".

What seperates hinduism from most other religions is that other religions lay great emphasis on converting people of other faiths to that religion.

Is it not true that some hindus worship Lord Shiva, Ganesh, goddess Kali, Lakshmi devi, Lord Indra, the four Kumaras, some are seculists, some are atheist, some are buddhists and so on?
If that is the case, then would it not be hard to convert people to hinduism?

Reincarnattion is something most hindus believe in.

Why not all?

Hinduism is not nearly as much a religion as it is a way of life.

This, i agree.

Like any devout people hindus take offense to any threat to their religion.

You say "their religion" as though they have a central belief structure. I believe hindus, as any peoples, be it american, african, etc, would take offense to any threat, this is nature.

Hinduism will always survive.

I believe they will.

Love

Jan Ardena.