Why girls avoid science and math?

The title of this thread got me wonder, is math not science? :confused:

More or less I agree with Kadark:

Kadark said:
I don't think women avoid science; however, there is an ostensible disparity between the male-female ratio in departments such as engineering. From what I've noticed in university, there are tons of women in science programs (usually outnumbering their male counterparts); however, in engineering courses, women are scarce.


Kadark
Click to expand...

I got my bachelor degree in Chemical Engineering, the total students enrolled
in my class was 90, with the ratio male:female = 2:1.

Next to our building is Petroleum Engineering dept, and in the same batch with
me, there was only 1 girl out of about 70 students in that major. She joined
the same extracurricular with me. When that girl once decided to quit the
study (to move to another major), all guys in her class joint together to buy
her one bicycle. She canceled the quit. :eek:
 
nasor said:
Sorry, maybe I wasn't being very clear. Performing symmetry operations on shapes was only one relatively small part of the class. My female students having difficulty with it doesn't appear to have anything to do with their overall math ability
Click to expand...
My reply to your post was also based on missing that key aspect of it.

The more abstract argument about brain differences is too often used to defend what are as far as anyone can tell purely societal influences on "proclivity".

The current societal influences suppressing male involvement in reading, writing, and 'rithmetic, are not defended by reference to specifically male brain development, AFAIK. Unless race is also involved, anyway.
 
As for why girls avoid science and/or math, imo not only girls, many guys also
avoid hardcore science like math, and that's why it has never been in the top
10 list of favorite major (at least in my country). I noticed that there are more
guys than girls in the math dept during my years, but I supposed that has
something to do with the percentage of overall enrolled students as well. There
were more male than female students in my Uni.

Hardcore science like Math is also known as boring or difficult (according to my
observation). Math is exact, it's not like social sciences like philosophy, economy,
etc, which are more down to earth; everyone can learn the 'language'. Math has
its own 'language'. Even if the discussion is in English, I don't have a single clue
wth this people talk about over here:

rpenner said:
Ok, I've tried to come up to speed on the initial problem space of finding all algebras in vector spaces of $$n$$ dimensions, where you have $$n \times \left( \begin{array}{cc} n \\ 3 \end{array} \right)$$ equations in $$n \times \left( \begin{array}{cc} n \\ 2 \end{array} \right)$$ variables (or $$n^3$$ variables if you like, but then you get a lot of equations that set them to zero or equal and opposite to others). Or am I crazy to think that the Jacobi identities of basis vectors written out longhand in terms of the basis expansion vectors to be a natural starting point? So since $$n > 2 + 3$$ there are more equations than unknowns, would you tackle this as sort of a computer sudoku problem (up to isomorphism) over a limited subset of $$\mathbf{Q} \left[ \surd , i \right]$$? I'm not sure, but $$\left\{ \left. \sqrt{p} / q \right| p \in \left\{ -n^2 ... n^2 \right\} , q \in \left\{ 1 ... n \right\} \right\}$$ looks like a likely starting point to me. But then, I would want to prove that before basing my Ph.D. defense on it. :)

Mind you, 2000+ equations like $$\begin{eqnarray*}
0 & = & K_{aba} K_{aig} & + & K_{abb} K_{big} & + & K_{abc} K_{cig} & + & K_{abd} K_{dig} & + & K_{abe} K_{eig} & + & K_{abf} K_{fig} \\
& & & - & K_{abg} K_{aia} & - & K_{abg} K_{bib} & + & K_{abg} K_{gig} & + & K_{abh} K_{hig} & - & K_{abj} K_{ijg} \\
& - & K_{abk} K_{ikg} & - & K_{abl} K_{ilg} & - & K_{acg} K_{bic} & - & K_{adg} K_{bid} & - & K_{aeg} K_{bie} & - & K_{afg} K_{bif} \\
& & & - & K_{agg} K_{big} & - & K_{ahg} K_{bih} & + & K_{aic} K_{bcg} & + & K_{aid} K_{bdg} & + & K_{aie} K_{beg} \\
& + & K_{aif} K_{bfg} & + & K_{aig} K_{bgg} & - & K_{aig} K_{bii} & + & K_{aih} K_{bhg} & + & K_{aii} K_{big} & + & K_{aij} K_{bjg} \\
& & & + & K_{aik} K_{bkg} & + & K_{ail} K_{blg} & - & K_{ajg} K_{bij} & - & K_{akg} K_{bik} & - & K_{alg} K_{bil}
\end{eqnarray*} $$ looks like a job for a computer to me. But keeping track of the signs, identifying pivotal unknowns to queue up for guessing and importing the desired 6-dimensional algebra (90 vars?) is exactly where you want the computer assist in finding the remaining 702 vars.

Or is it rubbish? I certainly don't feel brilliant in this, my inaugural post. But I look forward to associating with you two as best I can. Someday I might actually be able to read the physics thesis.

-RP

TeX is fun.
Click to expand...

:runaway: It takes really dedication and intellectuality to pursue that type of stuff.

On the other hand, there are just so many more interesting fields for girls, in
and out of science. As far as I concern, girls favorite science are more into
medical, biology, environmental eng., or social sciences. There are also so
many fields of profession which are preferable for girls like secretary, banker
(you know, the outfit is cool :p), stewardess, entertainer (acting, modelling),
nursing, and anything related with people's daily life. Perhaps in general girls
are more interested into stuffs related with people or life instead of numbers,
machines, rock layers, and that type of stuffs.
 
BenTheMan said:
Ok...we can arm wrestle and then solve differential equations :) You bring the beer.
Click to expand...

lol. I hate beer. And you can declare yourself the winner at arm wrestling, I'm bad at it. I even lose to young children. Maybe women avoid math and science because many aren't interested. That's why I avoid English, philosophy, and art like the plague. I hate math too, so I also avoid it. I'm happiest when I do things I enjoy. Which are the sciences and anything athletic. So those are the classes I move towards. It has nothing to do with being the only girl, even though I don't like being the only girl.
 
Maybe women avoid math and science because many aren't interested.
Click to expand...

This is the point. The question is, why are they disinterested? As I mentioned before, some sciences (like biology) tend to do much better than other sciences (like physics) when it comes to gender equity. To me, this doesn't suggest that there are some societal hurdles to women entering the field of physics, but something else.

I'm no sociologist, though, and am mostly talking out of my ass.
 
Math and science in themselves are not boring, but the careers that follow are. How fun is it to be an accountant? A physics teacher? Not much fun. Who here wants to be a string theory nut? That's why. Many guys shy away from such careers as well. It's more fun and realistic to be a lawyer and argue. Guys like to argue. That's why there's an abundance of lawyers in U.S. and a general shortage of engineers (not only female engineers, but male engineers as well).
 
BenTheMan: "I'm no sociologist, though, and am mostly talking out of my ass."

Look what you've sank to- pwned; a pitiful, broken wretch. Next time I warn you to run, remember...

RUN AWAY!

-Or maybe just avoid challenging the understanding of our fairest ladies- they can eat you for brekkies.
 
BenTheMan said:
This is the point. The question is, why are they disinterested? As I mentioned before, some sciences (like biology) tend to do much better than other sciences (like physics) when it comes to gender equity. To me, this doesn't suggest that there are some societal hurdles to women entering the field of physics, but something else.

I'm no sociologist, though, and am mostly talking out of my ass.
Click to expand...

actually to a sociologist all difference between the sex's are concidered cultural except the ovious physical ones relating to reproduction. ie parents are the main reason there is a diffence in how boys and girls develop. ever gone up to a new mum and delbratly implied the baby is the oposite gender?
seen how quick she is to correct you?
the fact is that its parents who cause the gender differences and they do them from the time the baby comes home, they cut there hair differently, they send them to different activities, they dress them differently and they give them different toys.

its facinating to watch fretenal twins of oposite genders growing up like i did and how they are treated
 
Asguard said:
actually to a sociologist all difference between the sex's are concidered cultural except the ovious physical ones relating to reproduction. ie parents are the main reason there is a diffence in how boys and girls develop. ever gone up to a new mum and delbratly implied the baby is the oposite gender?
seen how quick she is to correct you?
the fact is that its parents who cause the gender differences and they do them from the time the baby comes home, they cut there hair differently, they send them to different activities, they dress them differently and they give them different toys.
Click to expand...
Sociologists may believe that (that's their stock in trade, after all), but that doesn't make it true. Males and females are different from the moment they leave the womb. To claim otherwise is a politically motivated attempt to ignore reality. This issue was discussed at length at a Harvard debate between Steven Pinker and Elizabeth Spelke.

THE SCIENCE OF GENDER AND SCIENCE
PINKER VS. SPELKE
A DEBATE

STEVEN PINKER is the Johnstone Family Professor in the Department of Psychology at Harvard University. His research has won prizes from the National Academy of Sciences and the Royal Institution of Great Britain, and he is the author of six books, including The Language Instinct, How the Mind Works, Words and Rules, and The Blank Slate.

ELIZABETH S. SPELKE is Berkman Professor of Psychology at Harvard University, where she is Co-Director of the Mind, Brain, and Behavior Initiative. A member of the National Academy of Sciences and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, she is cited by Time Magazine as one of America's Best in Science and Medicine.​
You can watch the debate, read the transcripts, see the slides, whatever. It's a good website and they are discussing exactly what we're discussing here. Here's a relevent quote:
"At the time I started writing this book it seemed clear to me that any between sex differences in thinking abilities were due to socialization practices, artifacts, and mistakes in the research. After reviewing a pile of journal articles that stood several feet high, and numerous books and book chapters that dwarfed the stack of journal articles, I changed my mind. The literature on sex differences in cognitive abilities is filled with inconsistent findings, contradictory theories, and emotional claims that are unsupported by the research. Yet despite all the noise in the data, clear and consistent messages could be heard. There are real and in some cases sizable sex differences with respect to some cognitive abilities. Socialization practices are undoubtedly important, but there is also good evidence that biological sex differences play a role in establishing and maintaining cognitive sex differences, a conclusion I wasn't prepared to make when I began reviewing the relevant literature."
Click to expand...
Check out the link.
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/debate05/debate05_index.html
 
madanthonywayne said:
Sociologists may believe that (that's their stock in trade, after all), but that doesn't make it true. Males and females are different from the moment they leave the womb. To claim otherwise is a politically motivated attempt to ignore reality.
Click to expand...

So, if I say they are different even within the womb, that'll also be a politically motivated blahblahwhatever? I am going to follow the trend and ask you, where did you learn this?

I have always said this and I say it again: Men only claim to have a grasp of logical thinking, but they don't really have a grasp of it!

:m:
 
Plazma Inferno! said:
http://www.physorg.com/news139840901.html

What do you think about this?
Click to expand...
I think it's probably because of social factors. You know teens want to be popular, and I think that the social pressure that teenage girls experiance is far greater than that of teenage boys. I mean you can still be popular as a boy if you are good at maths, you just have to be a bit social. For girls that may be harder, as maths are socially deemed (often) a boys interest.
 
It's probably worth noting that my 3 math teachers were all (hot) young women. I think that in general more men go into careers where math is more dominant, because of

1) social status... girls are more social than men in general and math is associated with nerdiness, which lowers the social status.
2) its presented as boring... and it is probably pretty difficult to make learning math enjoyable.
3) there are already way more men into math than women, which makes it so that women can identify with it less
4) women in general... to say it bluntly, generally suck at things like math (the emotional side of their brain is more dominant than their 'calculating' brain, unlike men)
 
Last edited:
inzomnia said:
Hardcore science like Math is also known as boring or difficult (according to my
observation). Math is exact, it's not like social sciences like philosophy, economy,
etc, which are more down to earth; everyone can learn the 'language'. Math has
its own 'language'. Even if the discussion is in English, I don't have a single clue
wth this people talk about over here:

:runaway: It takes really dedication and intellectuality to pursue that type of stuff.
Click to expand...

Or you might pursue it because it is beautiful.

Seriously. I think math is beautiful. Once I understand a proof it is like looking at a work of art. I did not make a career of pure math because I am not creative enough -- I do not come up with proofs, -- but I can and do appreciate them. The example you gave does not make much sense out of context, but I could follow most of it, and it seemed elegant. I do not know anyone who studies math out of stubbornness. They study math because they love it.
 
s0meguy said:
It's probably worth noting that my 3 math teachers were all (hot) young women. I think that in general more men go into careers where math is more dominant, because of

1) social status... girls are more social than men in general and math is associated with nerdiness, which lowers the social status.
2) its presented as boring... and it is probably pretty difficult to make learning math enjoyable.
3) there are already way more men into math than women, which makes it so that women can identify with it less
4) women in general... to say it bluntly, generally suck at things like math (the emotional side of their brain is more dominant than their 'calculating' brain, unlike men)
Click to expand...

I'm a girl. I passed an Open University module in mathematics when I was 15 years old.

Wait, now you mention it....My ovaries are badly shrivelled. Motherfucker.

Oh wait, this is coming from someone who insists that he wouldn't cry if his girlfriend went into convulsions and died in front of him. Pardon me if I don't give you much credence.
 
visceral_instinct said:
I'm a girl. I passed an Open University module in mathematics when I was 15 years old.

Wait, now you mention it....My ovaries are badly shrivelled. Motherfucker.

Oh wait, this is coming from someone who insists that he wouldn't cry if his girlfriend went into convulsions and died in front of him. Pardon me if I don't give you much credence.
Click to expand...

men and women are different, whether it is politically correct or not... different brain functions are more dominant at a specific gender, that is a fact. the emotional side of the brain being more active with women, means that they generally are more empathic, have better social skills, and a larger vocabulary.

I never said that no women do stuff like math..... i actually said that all 3 of my math teachers ever were young women. but you sound like the kind of person that would lie just to feel like you're right.
 
s0meguy said:
men and women are different, whether it is politically correct or not... different brain functions are more dominant at a specific gender, that is a fact. the emotional side of the brain being more active with women, means that they generally are more empathic, have better social skills, and a larger vocabulary.

I never said that no women do stuff like math..... i actually said that all 3 of my math teachers ever were young women. but you sound like the kind of person that would lie just to feel like you're right.
Click to expand...

Yes, they're different, but they're not that different.

Read the papers once in a while. Girls are increasingly doing better at ALL subjects, not just the ones where they are allegedly more able.

I could scan the certificate and post it, but to be honest, I could care less what you think of me. I know I've got it upstairs. I don't need to prove anything to you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top