Why do people fear nuclear power?

Nuclear power is the most expensive, dangerous, and impermanent of the major alternatives to fossil fuels.


Tell that to the French: cheapest electric build, a zero lethality nuclear safety record and has done nothing for inhibit wind power development in electric client state like Germany and the Netherlands.

Efficiency improvements are the cheapest stopgaps, and an an economic depression is a fine time to make them.

Efficiency improvement can be done SIMULTANEOUSLY while we build alternatives like nuclear power.

It would be far cheaper to build thermal solar and wind plants, together with whatever high voltage lines prove necessary, than deal with the known and ineradicable problems with nukes.

And when the wind is not blowing and the sun is not shining we start burning candles?

And the technological upside with these comparatively neglected technologies is much greater than the thoroughly financed and investigated and yet underperforming nuclear field.

So France does not exist even?

Take Iran, for example. Just for starters.

So?
 
electric said:
Tell that to the French: cheapest electric build, a zero lethality nuclear safety record
The French government owned (socialist) setup is not that cheap. It is currently being subsidized by the French taxpayer, riding on low cost inputs from decommissioned nuclear weapons and other scrap, postponing various obligations, dumping its excess capacity at low prices in Europe and still not filling capacity, etc; as with all nuclear power setups the waste remains a future project not properly included in the books - as do the decommissioning costs, the political and security costs, and such features as complicity in entanglements with the Somalian coastal dumping and various suspect governments.
electric said:
Efficiency improvement can be done SIMULTANEOUSLY while we build alternatives like nuclear power.
With unlimited funds, sure.

With limited funds, you want more bang for your buck than nuclear power - also something less centralized would be nice, and with a shorter lead time.
electric said:
And when the wind is not blowing and the sun is not shining we start burning candles?
Please. This is an adult forum.
electric said:
Take Iran, for example. Just for starters.

So?
So make sure you are making an honest accounting of the costs of nuclear power - the Iran mess is into the many billions now, directly accountable to nuclear power development by US government and corporations.
 
Kaboom-boom

I won't say anything about resurrecting a six year-old thread, but I will note this, in answering the general question: Why do people fear nuclear power?

I would go so far as to say it's probably a combination of Cold War fears about nuclear explosions, and poor maintenance of nuclear energy facilities:

One of the most lethal patches of ground in North America is located in the backwoods of North Carolina, where Shearon Harris nuclear plant is housed and owned by Progress Energy. The plant contains the largest radioactive waste storage pools in the country. It is not just a nuclear-power-generating station, but also a repository for highly radioactive spent fuel rods from two other nuclear plants. The spent fuel rods are transported by rail and stored in four densely packed pools filled with circulating cold water to keep the waste from heating. The Department of Homeland Security has marked Shearon Harris as one of the most vulnerable terrorist targets in the nation.

The threat exists, however, without the speculation of terrorist attack. Should the cooling system malfunction, the resulting fire would be virtually unquenchable and could trigger a nuclear meltdown, putting more than two hundred million residents of this rapidly growing section of North Carolina in extreme peril. A recent study by Brookhaven Labs estimates that a pool fire could cause 140,000 cancers, contaminate thousands of square miles of land, and cause over $500 billion in off-site property damage.

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) has estimated that there is a 1:100 chance of pool fire happening under the best of scenarios. And the dossier on the Shearon Harris plant is far from the best.

In 1999 the plant experienced four emergency shutdowns. A few months later, in April 2000, the plant’s safety monitoring system, designed to provide early warning of a serious emergency, failed. And it wasn’t the first time. Indeed, the emergency warning system at Shearon Harris has failed fifteen times since the plant opened in 1987 ....


(Project Censored)

Twelve shutdowns in four yers at the site seem appalling compared to the expected one shutdown every eighteen months.

The industry doesn't do much to win people's confidence.
____________________

Notes:

Project Censored. "Nuclear Waste Pools in North Carolina". Censored 2010: The Top 25 Censored Stories of 2008-09. Ed. Peter Phillips and Mickey Huff. New York: Seven Stories, 2009. ProjectCensored.org. April 7, 2010. http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/4-nuclear-waste-pools-in-north-carolina/
 
The French government owned (socialist) setup is not that cheap. It is currently being subsidized by the French taxpayer, riding on low cost inputs from decommissioned nuclear weapons and other scrap, postponing various obligations, dumping its excess capacity at low prices in Europe and still not filling capacity, etc; as with all nuclear power setups the waste remains a future project not properly included in the books - as do the decommissioning costs, the political and security costs, and such features as complicity in entanglements with the Somalian coastal dumping and various suspect governments.

vague generalized counter arguments, do specific!

With unlimited funds, sure.

Grid efficiency enhancement don't cost much, they can in fact be done with developing alternatives at the same time.

With limited funds, you want more bang for your buck than nuclear power - also something less centralized would be nice, and with a shorter lead time.

All possible with nuclear power, small turn key reactors have been proposed for decades but someone refuses to make investments in them.

Please. This is an adult forum.

No you be realistic! how do we get power out of intermittents like wind and solar when they aren't producing, we would need grid- energy storage on a massive scale with combined price tags that would make these alternatives no very economically attractive.

So make sure you are making an honest accounting of the costs of nuclear power - the Iran mess is into the many billions now, directly accountable to nuclear power development by US government and corporations.

So?
 
Why do people fear nuclear power?

In the US it's mostly due to a film called 'The China Syndrome'. A childishly ridiculous fantasy film that happened to be released when an incident called 'Three Mile Island' happened, where no one died. People were exposed to about as much radiation as they receive in a normal xray exam.

But the film and the news converged to convince Americans 'The China Syndrome' was practically a documentary. The two things seemed to confirm the legitimacy of ridiculous claims by 'anti nuclear' activists. That settled it.

Now we've slowly poisoned our nation with lead, mercury, and many other poisons from burning coal. The mercury and lead are in every river, lake, and stream. In the food we eat, the seafood we catch, the fish we catch, etc. The state of Texas produces more pollution and so-called 'greenhouse gases' than the whole of Europe.

Brilliant moves by 'environmentalists'.
 
Why are people so afraid of using less energy?

I doubt many people under 40 have seen The China Syndrome.
 
Why are people so afraid of using less energy?

I doubt many people under 40 have seen The China Syndrome.

Um... come on... think a little.

You do realize that something that shapes mass perception in a country is carried on by social conditioning right?

Well obviously you don't, silly question, but now you know.
 
France is getting over 80 percent of their power from Atomic Reactors and none have ever had any major problems for over 50 years.
 
France is getting over 80 percent of their power from Atomic Reactors and none have ever had any major problems for over 50 years.
And they ship much of their nuclear waste to Russia, where we all know nuclear products are dealt with with great care.
 
And they ship much of their nuclear waste to Russia, where we all know nuclear products are dealt with with great care.

France reprocesses most of it nuclear waste, in fact it has been a net importer of nuclear "waste".
http://www.ocrwm.doe.gov/factsheets/doeymp0411.shtml

More so France is using russia to extend its reprocessing capability by having russia do some of its reprocessing, whats sent to Russia is not necessarily waste but is "recyclable uranium"

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/french-nuclear-waste-sent-to-russia-20091013-gvqp.html

EDF responded by saying that the material it handed over to the nuclear group Areva to send to Russia could not be considered waste as it was reprocessed and sent back.

''No nuclear waste [is sent] to Russia,'' said a spokesman. ''Only recyclable uranium, reprocessed from EDF's nuclear reactors, is sent to Russia to be enriched.''
 
France reprocesses most of it nuclear waste, in fact it has been a net importer of nuclear "waste".
http://www.ocrwm.doe.gov/factsheets/doeymp0411.shtml

More so France is using russia to extend its reprocessing capability by having russia do some of its reprocessing, whats sent to Russia is not necessarily waste but is "recyclable uranium"

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/french-nuclear-waste-sent-to-russia-20091013-gvqp.html

EDF responded by saying that the material it handed over to the nuclear group Areva to send to Russia could not be considered waste as it was reprocessed and sent back.

''No nuclear waste [is sent] to Russia,'' said a spokesman. ''Only recyclable uranium, reprocessed from EDF's nuclear reactors, is sent to Russia to be enriched.''
It's amazing how EDF finds its own policies immaculate. Many large organizations find it very hard to be objective about their own behavior.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=31466


But 30 to 40 percent of Eurodif's depleted uranium - 4,500 to 6,000 tonnes annually - is sent to Russia, where it undergoes "enrichment" to turn it back into fuel for nuclear power plants. Just one-tenth of that uranium returns to France, and the rest remains in Russia, stored in inadequate conditions, say the environmental activists.

Greenpeace also warns that the uranium shipments are made using conventional Russian transportation, without appropriate safety and security measures, along a route that passes through major cities like St. Petersburg and Tomsk, and along the coasts of Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Norway and Finland.
 
The French public, the little humans on the ground, is none to happy with nuclear waste as it currently is handled in France either.

Vice-President Cheney Wrong About French Nuclear Repository Program, Independent Institute Asserts

French Public's Opposition to Nuclear Waste Repositories as Deep as that in the United States

Washington, D.C.: Vice-President Cheney's claim that France has a safe and environmentally sound repository for burying radioactive waste generated by nuclear power plants is wrong, according to the Institute for Energy and Environmental Research (IEER), an independent non-profit group that has published numerous technical reports, books, and papers on nuclear waste management and related issues.

In a May 8 interview with CNN on the Bush administration's proposed energy policy, the Vice-President said: "Right now we've got waste piling up at reactors all over the country. Eventually, there ought to be a permanent repository. The French do this very successfully and very safely in an environmentally sound, sane manner. We need to be able to do the same thing."

"The facts regarding the French repository program contradict Vice-President Cheney," said Dr. Arjun Makhijani, president of IEER, who has written widely on nuclear waste issues. "France has no repository, and their siting program faces huge domestic opposition. The controversy that surrounds waste management is a thorn in the side of the French nuclear industry."

The French government's schedule for a repository, like the U.S. schedule, is far too rapid for a careful scientific investigation required for estimating repository performance over hundreds of thousands of years, according to IEER. Later this year, the U.S. government hopes to declare the proposed Yucca Mountain repository site in Nevada suitable for disposing of radioactive waste, despite serious unresolved questions. The earliest U.S. government projection for opening the proposed repository is 2010. The earliest government-projected French repository opening date is 2015. Both programs have faced intense opposition.

The first opposition in France surfaced in 1987 when the French government opened the search for a repository site without a significant public process. The opposition from the local populations was so intense that government investigators were not allowed near some of the named sites. Many protests centered around concern for the safety and image of France's food supply. France created a new waste law in 1991.

Like the 1982 U.S. Nuclear Waste Policy Act, the 1991 French law mandates that there should be two sites (called laboratories in France) for study. In 1998, a clay site, Bure, located in the east of France was chosen for study, over local objections. The site is in an economically depressed area, and was chosen in disregard of both local opposition (which continues) and a large body of emerging evidence that, contrary to decades-old assumptions, plutonium and several other radionuclides migrate rapidly towards the groundwater under a variety of geologic circumstances.

"When I spoke with the officials at the Bure site," noted Dr. Makhijani, who toured the site in July 2000 at the instance of community leaders and local government officials, "they seemed quite unaware of recent U.S. research on the migration of plutonium, for instance in colloidal form. Ignoring important scientific issues in France is quite parallel to what the U.S. Department of Energy has done with the U.S. repository program."

The areas where a second site may be selected for research were listed early last year. The opposition was intense and widespread - in one case, large numbers of people escorted the officials' car to the border of the Mayenne Département. (A Département is a French administrative unit in between a county and a state.) The people wanted to see an end to the production of waste and pointed out that it was not very democratic to discuss dumping waste in areas that had had no say in the decision to produce it.

"France made a historic mistake when it decided to rely so heavily on nuclear power, rather than develop more advanced renewable technologies and efficient utilization methods," said Didier Anger, a local elected official, and a founder of France's Green Party, which is part of the ruling coalition government. Mr. Anger represents one of France's most heavily nuclearized regions, Normandy, where the world's largest commercial plutonium separation plant is located.

France's nuclear waste management differs from the U.S. in one major respect. France has a major plant, called a reprocessing plant, to dissolve used reactor fuel in a chemical plant to separate plutonium, uranium and fission products.

"But reprocessing does not get rid of the radioactivity," said Dr. Makhijani. "Rather it creates more pollution. Moreover the separated plutonium is a proliferation problem and a very costly, uneconomical fuel."

Liquid waste discharges from reprocessing are polluting the English Channel and spreading radioactivity in the seas of Western Europe. The pollution from the reprocessing plant has so rankled other European countries, that 12 members of the OSPAR (Oslo-Paris) convention (a European body whose mission is to protect the marine environment) voted last year for the elimination of the radioactive releases from the plant with a view to shutting down the reprocessing activity. France abstained. Denmark, Norway and Ireland have called on France and Britain, which runs a similar plant, to shut down their reprocessing operations.

The French public is also growing more and more skeptical of government claims about the safety of nuclear power. Government spokespersons misled the French public into believing that there was no fallout on France after the Chernobyl catastrophe in 1986, even as the rest of Europe was dumping contaminated food. Those reassurances have since been proven to be false. France, like much of the rest of Europe has hot spots from Chernobyl. The government has recently commissioned an epidemiological study to investigate the role of the Chernobyl accident in the increase of thyroid cancers.

"There is no good solution to the problem of long-lived nuclear waste," said Dr. Makhijani. "Before we launch into an energy policy that will lock us into another generation of waste creation, we ought at least to look carefully at the terrible burdens we will pass on to future generations from the last round of reactors."

"France is no showcase for nuclear power," said Didier Anger. "Before pointing to France as a success story, the American public should ask the French people what they think of the problems of waste, disease, and government cover-ups."
 
It's amazing how EDF finds its own policies immaculate. Many large organizations find it very hard to be objective about their own behavior.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=31466

Depleted uranium is not technically nuclear/radioactive waste and can be/is used for many industrial applications free of radiation considerations. Consider a 20mm depleted uranium bullet release less radiation then your body does at any one moment, the radioactively of depleted uranium is so low even used as radiation shielding in some cases as it a more capable x-ray/gamma absorber then lead! Like lead though uranium is a toxic heavy metal only 1/1,000,000 of the harm from ingestion and exposure from depleted uranium is caused by its radioactivity, the rest is cause by its chemical toxicity.

Of course Greenpeace and other left wingnuts don't whine about lead like they do uranium because uranium has the "R" and "N" words often associated with it, which cause irrational fear in the liberal wingnut mind.
 
Just like in the US waste sites tend to end up near poor people.

Further some of this waste is dangerous for thousands of years.

If we go back to say 10,000 B.C. and imagine people then used an energy source whose waste products we today had to spend very, very large sums of money to
1) create the security for - so terrorists cannot get at it
2) maintain the sites
3) deal with earthquakes or wars that damage the sites or any other natural or human created events that damage the integrity of one of these sites


people now would not be happy to have their tax dollars support the hysterical, primarily useless energy consumption of people long since dead.

And yet we expect future humans to bear the burdens of our energy consumption and the profits of certain executives in this short sighted industry.

And 12,000 years is still short term compared to how long some nuclear waste products take to break down.
 
Of course Greenpeace and other left wingnuts don't whine about lead like they do uranium because uranium has the "R" and "N" words often associated with it, which cause irrational fear in the liberal wingnut mind.
An argument that cannot be either supported or rebutted because it is simply ad hom.
 
I won't say anything about resurrecting a six year-old thread, but I will note this, in answering the general question: Why do people fear nuclear power?

I would go so far as to say it's probably a combination of Cold War fears about nuclear explosions, and poor maintenance of nuclear energy facilities:

One of the most lethal patches of ground in North America is located in the backwoods of North Carolina, where Shearon Harris nuclear plant is housed and owned by Progress Energy. The plant contains the largest radioactive waste storage pools in the country. It is not just a nuclear-power-generating station, but also a repository for highly radioactive spent fuel rods from two other nuclear plants. The spent fuel rods are transported by rail and stored in four densely packed pools filled with circulating cold water to keep the waste from heating. The Department of Homeland Security has marked Shearon Harris as one of the most vulnerable terrorist targets in the nation.

The threat exists, however, without the speculation of terrorist attack. Should the cooling system malfunction, the resulting fire would be virtually unquenchable and could trigger a nuclear meltdown, putting more than two hundred million residents of this rapidly growing section of North Carolina in extreme peril. A recent study by Brookhaven Labs estimates that a pool fire could cause 140,000 cancers, contaminate thousands of square miles of land, and cause over $500 billion in off-site property damage.

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) has estimated that there is a 1:100 chance of pool fire happening under the best of scenarios. And the dossier on the Shearon Harris plant is far from the best.

In 1999 the plant experienced four emergency shutdowns. A few months later, in April 2000, the plant’s safety monitoring system, designed to provide early warning of a serious emergency, failed. And it wasn’t the first time. Indeed, the emergency warning system at Shearon Harris has failed fifteen times since the plant opened in 1987 ....


(Project Censored)

Twelve shutdowns in four yers at the site seem appalling compared to the expected one shutdown every eighteen months.

The industry doesn't do much to win people's confidence.
____________________

Notes:

Project Censored. "Nuclear Waste Pools in North Carolina". Censored 2010: The Top 25 Censored Stories of 2008-09. Ed. Peter Phillips and Mickey Huff. New York: Seven Stories, 2009. ProjectCensored.org. April 7, 2010. http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/4-nuclear-waste-pools-in-north-carolina/

That the US nuclear industry for you, a negative feedback loop since the 70's because of lack of financing and upkeep because of all the anti-nuclear impediments over the decades. Again look at France's safety record for what can be done when a nation puts actually effort and approval into something.
 
electric said:
No you be realistic! how do we get power out of intermittents like wind and solar when they aren't producing, we would need grid- energy storage on a massive scale with combined price tags that would make these alternatives no very economically attractive.
But cheaper than nukes.
electric said:
With unlimited funds, sure.

Grid efficiency enhancement don't cost much, they can in fact be done with developing alternatives at the same time.
The concept is "marginal rate of return" - basically, every dollar spent on nukes that could have been spent on various efficiency improvements and so forth is fifty cents less energy demand met. Make the high-payoff conservation investments first, the cheaper power investments second, and nukes if you have a few hundred billion left over.
electric said:
Again look at France's safety record for what can be done when a nation puts actually effort and approval into something.
We can't even get socialist medicine in this country - socializing the entire electrical power system would require a new Congress.
 
in answer to the topic's question I would say because of how reative it is. If I was in a car that was nuclear powered I'd be afraid of it blowing up on me at any given second.
 
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