Why Do Americans Have Such A Poor Knowledge Of History?

I simply don't understand how any thread involving the American educational systems' lack of ability to teach history has anything to do at all with a political system. Particularly in the route it has taken since the OP.

Honestly, the Redstar person has made a fair few logical errors above... is there not one of you who are going to take him to task for it rather than trying to defend your political system? There is a difference. You allow him to attack you without counterattacking his premise? Really? Shame.
 
I simply don't understand how any thread involving the American educational systems' lack of ability to teach history has anything to do at all with a political system. Particularly in the route it has taken since the OP.

Honestly, the Redstar person has made a fair few logical errors above... is there not one of you who are going to take him to task for it rather than trying to defend your political system? There is a difference. You allow him to attack you without counterattacking his premise? Really? Shame.

How about you clarify then?
 
You first, sunshine. Explain how capitalism leads to a worse educational system than Communism. You started it.
 
You first, sunshine. Explain how capitalism leads to a worse educational system than Communism. You started it.

I never said capitalism did, I said nationalism did, in regards to history. The nationalism of ignoring the crimes of America while teaching a black-and-white history of the world is ruining history education.

Capitalism hurts education when class divide and poverty hurt schools

By the way, it's a well known fact that China and the USSR had better science and math scores
 
Oh, so it's Nationalism now?

I doubt you could point to a nation on earth immune to the effects of that particular bugbear.

Now why don't you go ahead and explain how communism is supposed to circumvent that?
Why don't you explain how "class divide and poverty hurt schools" without referencing America, whose educational systems have absolutely nothing to do with capitalism at all?

Better yet, why don't you explain how an economic theory affects education at all?
You have not yet once addressed a theory in itself, Redstar. all you've done is compared one manifestation with another.
 
Oh, so it's Nationalism now?

I doubt you could point to a nation on earth immune to the effects of that particular bugbear.

Now why don't you go ahead and explain how communism is supposed to circumvent that?

Yes, but especially Americans adhere to that imperialist notion of ignoring the worst parts of American history and painting a black-and-white picture of anybody who disagrees. Look at the Vietnam war: literally nothing more than the butchery of Vietnamese because they didn't want capitalism.

Historical education in the Soviet Union focused on Marxian theory and class consciousness, which in itself was better than the rubbish bourgeois history Americans are taught. It's why I like "A Peoples' History", it tells history the way it actually happened to the masses who lived through it, not the businessmen and politicians and kings.
 
Yes, but especially Americans adhere to that imperialist notion of ignoring the worst parts of American history and painting a black-and-white picture of anybody who disagrees. Look at the Vietnam war: literally nothing more than the butchery of Vietnamese because they didn't want capitalism.

Historical education in the Soviet Union focused on Marxian theory and class consciousness, which in itself was better than the rubbish bourgeois history Americans are taught. It's why I like "A Peoples' History", it tells history the way it actually happened to the masses who lived through it, not the businessmen and politicians and kings.


Why do you use the word imperialism ? Before the God bless Gorbachev there were 16 republic under Soviet empire , before the satellite nation acquired after ww2 . that is real imperialism
 
Why do you use the word imperialism ? Before the God bless Gorbachev there were 16 republic under Soviet empire , before the satellite nation acquired after ww2 . that is real imperialism

The USSR did practice some imperialism, I am not denying that.
 
Yes, but history seems to specifically omit all the worst atrocities that the US has participated in and paint a black-and-white picture.

So, are you going to spend all of your time making cheap thread after cheap thread about how Americans are ignorant sheeple?

Because that's going to get old really fast.
 
The USSR was an out-and-out empire. Not just a polity that occasionally exhibited "some imperialism." It was a literal, textbook empire.

Guess what? So was England. So was Holland. So was Germany, France, and to a large extent, the United States. And not long ago at all.

The reason I keep bringing this up is you keep criticizing the USSR as if you are on the side of the good guys yourself. You're not.

"War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.
I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag."

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

- Major General Smedley Butler, USMC
 
Guess what? So was England. So was Holland. So was Germany, France,

The implication that anyone didn't already know that is preposterous. Again, you - characteristically - go around attacking convenient strawmen. Anyone who disagrees with anything you say, is necessarily an Imperialist Pig with no Knowledge of History. This is childish, and will not get you far.

and to a large extent, the United States. And not long ago at all.

Other than our brief misadventures in the Phillipines, the USA has never been an actual textbook empire.

The reason I keep bringing this up is you keep criticizing the USSR as if you are on the side of the good guys yourself. You're not.

Not, that's just your childish strawman tactic again, always trying to push everyone into some Marxist Revolutionary/Capitalist Pig dialectic. Apart from being an out-and-out bullshit troll strategy, it's also pathetically dated and inane. At least pick a current battle to fight, eh?
 
Then what exactly is your argument, quadraphonics?

What are you saying? If we both agree that all nations have bloody history, what are we arguing about?
 
RedStar

The USSR did practice some imperialism, I am not denying that.

Name one country that America has been involved in in which America did not return sovereignty to them voluntarily(the definition of imperialism), then. We lost the war in Vietnam and that allowed the Communist North Vietnamese to succeed in their imperialistic ambition, but otherwise we have not continued to control the governments of any country we have had conflicts with or in. So, how exactly can the American's be called imperialistic? We live in peace with our neighbors, there are not even any fences or arms between us and Canada. The current problems with Mexico involve no invasion by American forces, nor do we interfere with their government. You continuously claim we are Imperialist, but have no evidence for that. Not at all what happened with the USSR or England who truly were Imperialist.

Yes, but especially Americans adhere to that imperialist notion of ignoring the worst parts of American history and painting a black-and-white picture of anybody who disagrees. Look at the Vietnam war: literally nothing more than the butchery of Vietnamese because they didn't want capitalism.

The French were fighting the Communist invasion of South Vietnam long before America became involved. It was Communist aggression that drove that war to impose Communism on the South, backed by Communist China(as in Korea). I was there and the South Vietnamese wanted nothing to do with the Communist North, even if their own government was a corrupt and failed state(for which the US shares responsibility). Thankfully, after the fall of Saigon, Communism itself died a long overdue death and the country is better off than they might otherwise be(given the example of Cambodia right next door and their "reeducation" death camps) Pol Pot was a perfect example of where pure Communist ideology leads(he was a pure Communist ideolog). And the only country in the world that is still a pure Communist state is North Korea, and you wouldn't want to live there(unless you think grass is an acceptable food substitute).

Grumpy:cool:
 
Then what exactly is your argument, quadraphonics?

I was pointing out that the USSR was an out-and-out, explicit empire, and not just a state that happened to behave imperialistically at times.

What are you saying? If we both agree that all nations have bloody history, what are we arguing about?

I dunno - you're apparently unable to respond to even a straightforward factual observation without launching into a huge salvo of your canned rhetoric.
 
@ Grumpy,
You're genuinely deluded if you think the Vietnamese enjoyed being under the control of the French and being attacked by the United States. No. The Vietnamese people supported communism (they weren't "invaded by" communism) because they got sick and tired of Western exploitation and imperialism. The Vietnamese people supported communism because they wanted freedom and equality, and the US wanted to crush their popular movement.

Also, ever heard of the Spanish-American War, or the Filipino Insurrection, which was text-book imperialism? The territories acquired are still under the control of the United States to this day. Hawaii, too, was taken hostage by business interests and forced to annex to the United States.
 
You're genuinely deluded if you think the Vietnamese enjoyed being under the control of the French and being attacked by the United States.

He didn't say anything that could be fairly interpretted as implying that. You are - characteristically - engaging in a cheap strawman tactic, and then casting aspersions on your target's mental faculties on that basis. This is childish and rude.

The Vietnamese people supported communism (they weren't "invaded by" communism) because they got sick and tired of Western exploitation and imperialism. The Vietnamese people supported communism because they wanted freedom and equality, and the US wanted to crush their popular movement.

Except for all the ones who didn't, of course.

Really though, that's exactly the kind of self-serving gloss that nobody who'd presume to lecture others on their putative black-and-white, distorted view of history should be indulging.

Also, ever heard of the Spanish-American War, or the Filipino Insurrection, which was text-book imperialism? The territories acquired are still under the control of the United States to this day.

Cuba and Phillipines aren't.

Hawaii, too, was taken hostage by business interests and forced to annex to the United States.

"Annex" here meaning they became a full-fledged state, with the same rights and privileges as any Americans, representation in the Congress, etc., just like California or New York.

Unless you're going to argue that the USA is itself an empire?
 
RedStar

You're genuinely deluded if you think the Vietnamese enjoyed being under the control of the French and being attacked by the United States.

That was the near end of French Imperialism, which the US had nothing to do with. Vietnam and the French asked us to come to their aid in French Indonesia but Kennedy only sent limited help(so called "advisers") instead of lots of troops because Congress would not have approved, especially given the Bay of Pigs invasion fiasco(planned under Eisenhower, BTW). When Kennedy was assassinated Johnson engineered the Ton-kin incident and ginned up support for troops being deployed. America did not attack the South Vietnamese people, they just kicked the ass of the North Vietnamese invaders, but the presence of Chinese and Russian military in the Hanoi area meant ROEs that limited America's actions in that area, especially not allowing attacks on the airfields and staging areas lest we slaughter a few Communists who were the very ones who started and pushed the original invasion by the North Vietnamese in the first place. So, no, America did not attack the Vietnamese people, they defended the South Vietnamese people from a Communist invasion from the North. If the NVs had stayed in NV I would not have had to shoot so many of them, something I would have rather not have on my conscience. All the fighting took place in South Vietnam(with excursions into Laos and Cambodia against supply trains), just how does one attack someone when that someone comes to your country(and the country you are defending)with a gun. Is it attacking some thief if you shoot him in your own house when he threatens you with a gun. That's not attacking and you are the one excusing the behavior of the Viet Cong as the aggressors and trying to rewrite history about who attacked whom in Vietnam.

Grumpy:cool:
 
He didn't say anything that could be fairly interpreted as implying that. You are - characteristically - engaging in a cheap strawman tactic, and then casting aspersions on your target's mental faculties on that basis. This is childish and rude.
He is arguing the North Vietnamese, the force for change, were the "aggressors". This is an insult and a slap in the face to anybody who opposes colonialism and exploitation.

Except for all the ones who didn't, of course.
Landlords and aristocrats are hardly "the people". The South Vietnamese were led by Emperor Bao Dai initially and later by business interests under the other South Vietnamese leadership. Not to mention the forces of several colonial Western powers, as well as Thai forces on behalf of royalty.

I would hardly call any of those popular or by the people. Why do you think the Viet Cong were so successful? Because they were supported by the peasant classes of Vietnam. The South Vietnamese had to ask for help from the very same people who were previously oppressing the country. I don't know how much more obvious it can get that this was an effort of the ruling class to keep control. Ngo Dinh Diem was an autocrat who was not popular with the peasantry or the working class. The US literally propped him up.

Most non-American observers of the Vietnamese scene in 1954 considered that South Vietnam was doomed. Pres. Ngo Dinh Diem appeared to be a creation of the U.S., pulled out of the hat at the very last minute. In contrast Ho Chi Minh was the revered leader of the Vietnamese independence movement. At the time of the Geneva Treaty, the Viet Minh had considerable popular support. Combining their prestige as leading nationalists with successes at social reform in the parts of Vietnam they controlled, there was little doubt that they would be successful in the general elections to be held. As Communist-controlled North Vietnam had a majority of the population, anyway, neither the Diem government in the South nor the U.S. was willing to risk defeat. And in 1956 they refused to participate in elections.

Diem may rule in the day; but by night the Viet Minh guerillas control the countryside. Their charges of American imperialism seem, to the peasant, entirely substantiated by the presence of American military personnel in all parts of the country. And in history of American military aid to the French in the Indo-Chinese war prompts many of the Vietnamese to consider America as heir of French colonialism and the unpopular Pres. Diem as its puppet emperor.
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1962/3/30/communism-and-vietnam-pin-1954-the/

South Vietnam had lesser support from the people of Vietnam. This is a rather apparent fact.

Cuba and Phillipines aren't.
Not for lack of trying. They kicked you guys out.

"Annex" here meaning they became a full-fledged state, with the same rights and privileges as any Americans, representation in the Congress, etc., just like California or New York.
It was still done at gunpoint and against the wishes of the indigenous people.



RedStar



That was the near end of French Imperialism, which the US had nothing to do with. Vietnam and the French asked us to come to their aid
No, a handful of aristocrats asked you to come to their aid. See above.
America did not attack the South Vietnamese people
No, they just attacked the much larger popular North Vietnamese movement
they just kicked the ass of the North Vietnamese invaders, but the presence of Chinese and Russian military in the Hanoi area meant ROEs that limited America's actions in that area, especially not allowing attacks on the airfields and staging areas lest we slaughter a few Communists who were the very ones who started and pushed the original invasion by the North Vietnamese in the first place.
This is a joke, right? The North Vietnamese were more popular with the vast majority of commoners than the South Vietnamese. This is a fact.
So, no, America did not attack the Vietnamese people, they defended the South Vietnamese people from a Communist invasion from the North
See above. North Vietnam won because the NVA and Viet Cong were actually popular among the regular people, and had morale: they had something to fight for. The SVA were inefficient and fighting for an unpopular government backed by [what the people perceived] as an imperial power.
All the fighting took place in South Vietnam(with excursions into Laos and Cambodia against supply trains), just how does one attack someone when that someone comes to your country(and the country you are defending)with a gun. Is it attacking some thief if you shoot him in your own house when he threatens you with a gun. That's not attacking and you are the one excusing the behavior of the Viet Cong as the aggressors and trying to rewrite history about who attacked whom in Vietnam.
No, you're the one rewriting history pretending that the South Vietnamese regime under Diem was actually the popular movement. By the way, you can think what you want to ease your conscience, but it's basically universally regarded that the Vietnam War was a complete disaster for the United States and an example of American butchery of foreign independence movements. I don't know what rubbish the military taught you, but you went over there and murdered people. It's murder.
 
RedStar

The Vietnamese people supported communism (they weren't "invaded by" communism) because they got sick and tired of Western exploitation and imperialism. The Vietnamese people supported communism because they wanted freedom and equality, and the US wanted to crush their popular movement.

Who told you that crap. The South Vietnamese did not support Communism. I think I detect the kind of "education" that is heavily laden with lies and propaganda, maybe we should call it what it is, indoctrination. Children in Iran and Egypt are taught the Holocaust is an Israeli lie and hoax as well, that's the same kind of education you seem to have received. The Vietnamese I met were glad the French were gone, but also glad we were there. Communism was never freedom, unless freedom means doing exactly what the state tells you to. Cambodians under total Communism wouldn't call the Killing Fields freedom. North Koreans have no freedom to this day.

Also, ever heard of the Spanish-American War, or the Filipino Insurrection, which was text-book imperialism?

We have no influence or presence in either outside of Guantanamo, which we payed to lease in perpetuity(legally, probably 99 years from the 1950s)as a naval base. We also used to lease(as in pay for)the Panama Canal zone, but Carter gave it back to Panama. We gave their countries back to the people after the conflicts, how is that Imperialism? Did the Soviets give Poland back to the Polish, England give India back without being forced out? Imperialists keep the countries they invade, they run the government for their own benefit, they impose their will on the people. America has never done this. Even Puerto Rico is only a protectorate. We provide them defense(it's in our interest)and they allow us to lease Roosevelt Roads naval base. We have no influence on their political system and only impose our laws on the Naval Base. If they ever decide to do so we will welcome them as the 51st state, with all rights as American citizens, but it's their choice.

The territories acquired are still under the control of the United States to this day.

That is a lie.

Hawaii, too, was taken hostage by business interests and forced to annex to the United States.

June 27, 1959- A plebiscite is held to allow Hawai‘i residents to ratify the congressional vote for statehood. Out of 155,000 registered voters throughout the territory, 140,744 ballots are cast. The “yes for statehood” garners 94.3% (132,773 votes) while the “no” ballots equal 5.7% (7,971 votes).

http://statehoodhawaii.org/hist/sctl.html

Hawaiians VOTED to become the 50th state, almost 95% voted yes. You have been propagandized into utter...(er, Grumpy has been told to restrain his frustration with douche-bags, please excuse him for a moment)... irrelevance.

Grumpy:cool:
 
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