Why can we not say Water exist in 4 phases

[exchemist]

And you continue to be a fraud, as is shown by your refusal to accept scientific explanations, and making up total shit.
Let me say again........................
Clouds are simply visible water condensate at different levels, their stability depended on pressures and temperatures.
Warmer temperatures allow the atmosphere to hold more water than colder air, so that when a mass of air is cooled, simply put it rains...although again depended on pressures and temperatures, it could also hail or snow.
So, yes, water exists as a solid, liquid or gas.
That's science my friend...If you refuse to accept that, then you live in ignorance. [as others have noted]
Plus of course other even more detailed answers.

I'm not sure why you say "fraud". Has Timojin falsely represented him or herself in some way?

 

[paddoboy]

I'm not sure why you say "fraud". Has Timojin falsely represented him or herself in some way?

I don't believe he is genuine exchemist, and I think that is obvious in how he continually questions all answers he has been given in near all threads he starts and making stuff up [like the Sun made of disks because it rotates at different rates depending on latitude]

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't believe he is genuine exchemist, and I think that is obvious in how he continually questions all answers he has been given in near all threads he starts

Seems to me that's his right.
Unless he's using it to evade answers, which is a different criticism.

and making stuff up [like the Sun made of disks because it rotates at different rates depending on latitude]

In this thread?
What he does in other threads should have no bearing on this one. That is an example of ad hominem.
Now, I'm not saying I'm impressed with him, but if he's gonna be slagged it should be for valid reasons.

 

[timojin]

Not really. A number of us have tried to explain this simple thing to you. If you still don't get it, that's your problem, not ours.

Cloud can form at any altitude at all from ground up to over 10,000m and the process is the same.

Smaller distance between droplets does not increase the pressure, as water droplets are not rebounding elastically from one another, as molecules in thermal motion do.

Just think a bit more carefully about kinetic theory. Increased pressure is a consequence of more momentum (mv) reversal as molecules hit the walls of a container. That requires either they move faster (higher temperature, greater v) or there are more rebound collisions per second (denser gas, greater m/sec). But the key feature is molecules in thermal motion, rebounding elastically.

Water droplets are not molecules. They are passively suspended in air. They drift very slowly. So v ~ zero. When they encounter another droplet or the walls of a container, they do not rebound - on the contrary they stick and merge with the surface they encounter. Which is how they coalesce. So there is no pressure increase resulting from a denser fog or cloud (same thing).

I doubt it: This is just another effort to try and discredit science, as appears to be his mission.

I don't believe he is genuine exchemist, and I think that is obvious in how he continually questions all answers he has been given in near all threads he starts and making stuff up [like the Sun made of disks because it rotates at different rates depending on latitude]

Mr. I am patiently avoiding you, but you are keeping pestering me . As you said this is science forum , not your personal podium running for a position at the forum.
Let me tell you Science is based on questioning, and not accept yo what some one say based on reading . I have worked for 17 years in research and development laboratory. If people would not question , no new information nor new product would be on the market .
I can give you some change for your nastiness. But I rather wish that God bless you. and amen for that.

 

[paddoboy]

Seems to me that's his right.
Unless he's using it to evade answers, which is a different criticism.


In this thread?
What he does in other threads should have no bearing on this one. That is an example of ad hominem.
Now, I'm not saying I'm impressed with him, but if he's gonna be slagged it should be for valid reasons.

Perhaps I am somewhat "biased" by inferring his answers/questions in other threads, but the few answers/questions below, at least to me, suggest he is not exactly fair dinkum...hence my claim he is a fraud.

Then there should be no rain

Let assume it will go up and be part of the clouds at about 2000 mtt were the temp. is about 20 C apparently will not condensate to form droplets of water , let continue the cloud rise to 4000 mt were the temp. is about 4 C why does not condensate and form droplets to rain ? what is your explanation
How different is your statement from My # 29 , 31
The rain is produced when there is enough water droplets in the cloud that they come into physical contact and form larger and larger droplets until they fall as rain.

It was interesting discussion , I am familiar What rain is and how is formed , but I am not satisfied why the droplet organize themselves into a cloud . That does not obey the so called Grahams law if you remember
from your early days of chemistry . repenner is forgiven he is not a chemist perhaps a physicist , they usually are hand wavers

 

[paddoboy]

Mr. I am patiently avoiding you, but you are keeping pestering me . As you said this is science forum , not your personal podium running for a position at the forum.
Let me tell you Science is based on questioning, and not accept yo what some one say based on reading . I have worked for 17 years in research and development laboratory. If people would not question , no new information nor new product would be on the market .
I can give you some change for your nastiness. But I rather wish that God bless you. and amen for that.

Sure science is based on questioning, as long as those questions are a genuine effort to gain knowledge: You have worked 17 years in research? and yet some of your questions are so basic and student level.
You in my opinion, seem to have an agenda: If that offends you then I'm sorry.

 

[paddoboy]

Seems to me that's his right.
Unless he's using it to evade answers, which is a different criticism.

Sure that's his right......But many here do have ulterior motives, and therein lies the rub.

 

[DaveC426913]

Sure that's his right......But many here do have ulterior motives, and therein lies the rub.

Maybe, but so what? The adage applies just as well: address the argument, not the arguer.

I guess the point is, there's more than just you and him here. We're all here to address the issue at-hand. Calling someone a fraud doesn't really help the rest of us or help the thread.

Anyway, let's not derail the thread any further with this sidebar.

 

[paddoboy]

Anyway, let's not derail the thread any further with this sidebar.

Agreed: I'm sure most are convinced [if anyone needed to be convinced] that water can only exist in three phases, solid, liquid, and gas.

 

[timojin]

Maybe, but so what? The adage applies just as well: address the argument, not the arguer.

I guess the point is, there's more than just you and him here. We're all here to address the issue at-hand. Calling someone a fraud doesn't really help the rest of us or help the thread.

Anyway, let's not derail the thread any further with this sidebar.

I applaud you , specially last line

Along with the discussion of the sun which is an interesting subject as I pocked in . It become interesting the increase solar flare between 2008 to 2009 strong inflection and reached a plateau up to
present
The other . there is a photosphere and a chromosphere , sort is lique on the earth the base and clouds and since there are empty area in the chromosphere . I wonder that allows to move independently of the Photosphere

 

[DaveC426913]

I applaud you , specially last line

Along with the discussion of the sun which is an interesting subject as I pocked in . It become interesting the increase solar flare between 2008 to 2009 strong inflection and reached a plateau up to
present
The other . there is a photosphere and a chromosphere , sort is lique on the earth the base and clouds and since there are empty area in the chromosphere . I wonder that allows to move independently of the Photosphere

Well, if you kick open the door to your stuff about the sun, then it's no longer an ad hom if someone attacks it.

How is this related to the three phases of water?

 

[timojin]

Well, if you kick open the door to your stuff about the sun, then it's no longer an ad hom if someone attacks it.

How is this related to the three phases of water?

Sorry I posted it un the wrong opening it was meant to rotation of the sun.

To this topic. is about Clouds were they form, what is in the clouds, in what are they form, why the droplets or particle stay there ( clouds ) Apparently the particle have some physical shape , They do'nt fall down
unless some action brings the together , then they coalesce and come down as liquid water and we see rain .
In other words evaporate as gas , collect at given height and temp. it have a body which scatters light This is the topic.
Sorry I got confused because "he " is basically my challenge in the rotation of the sun

 

[paddoboy]

Here's a reasonable scientific explanation, not too many can be confused about......
http://water.usgs.gov/edu/watercycleprecipitation.html
The clouds floating overhead contain water vapor and cloud droplets, which are small drops of condensed water. These droplets are way too small to fall as precipitation, but they are large enough to form visible clouds. Water is continually evaporating and condensing in the sky. If you look closely at a cloud you can see some parts disappearing (evaporating) while other parts are growing (condensation). Most of the condensed water in clouds does not fall as precipitation because their fall speed is not large enough to overcome updrafts which support the clouds. For precipitation to happen, first tiny water droplets must condense on even tinier dust, salt, or smoke particles, which act as a nucleus. Water droplets may grow as a result of additional condensation of water vapor when the particles collide. If enough collisions occur to produce a droplet with a fall velocity which exceeds the cloud updraft speed, then it will fall out of the cloud as precipitation. This is not a trivial task since millions of cloud droplets are required to produce a single raindrop. A more efficient mechanism (known as the Bergeron-Findeisen process) for producing a precipitation-sized drop is through a process which leads to the rapid growth of ice crystals at the expense of the water vapor present in a cloud. These crystals may fall as snow, or melt and fall as rain.

 

[paddoboy]

In essence, and in an effort to simplistically minimise why clouds form and why it rains, we can sum it up with three scientific principals of knowledge:
EVAPORATION: The energy and heat from the Sun affects Oceans and bodies of water on Earth by evaporating some of it, governed by temperatures.
CONDENSATION: The water vapour that has been evaporated, will in time condense into water droplets which form what we observe as clouds, based again on temperatures and pressures.
PRECIPITATION: As the water vapour condenses into clouds and they become heavy, they literally fall as rain, again based on temperatures and pressures.

 

[exchemist]

Mr. I am patiently avoiding you, but you are keeping pestering me . As you said this is science forum , not your personal podium running for a position at the forum.
Let me tell you Science is based on questioning, and not accept yo what some one say based on reading . I have worked for 17 years in research and development laboratory. If people would not question , no new information nor new product would be on the market .
I can give you some change for your nastiness. But I rather wish that God bless you. and amen for that.

Returning to the subject, if you have worked in a research lab for this length of time - at least, if you have done so in any scientific capacity - you should be able to take in what I have been saying about the kinetic theory of gas pressure, viz. how it arises from molecules rebounding, which stationary water droplets in cloud will not do. Do you understand this now?

 

[timojin]

Returning to the subject, if you have worked in a research lab for this length of time - at least, if you have done so in any scientific capacity - you should be able to take in what I have been saying about the kinetic theory of gas pressure, viz. how it arises from molecules rebounding, which stationary water droplets in cloud will not do. Do you understand this now?

I understand about kinetics . I have a problem with tour point. that particles are drifting . As you said about concentration increase , apparently you are missing , the point that increase concentration introduce volume and volume refers to boundary and as you bring the particle closer to gether you are compressing, the free space for the particles . The problem here is that you folks are not willing to accept that a force os applied to the system.

 

[exchemist]

I understand about kinetics . I have a problem with tour point. that particles are drifting . As you said about concentration increase , apparently you are missing , the point that increase concentration introduce volume and volume refers to boundary and as you bring the particle closer to gether you are compressing, the free space for the particles . The problem here is that you folks are not willing to accept that a force os applied to the system.

I give up. I do not believe you have worked in a lab as any form of scientist. Do you have any qualification in physical science? I must say I really doubt it. You may have cleaned the bottles or looked after the stores, but no half way competent scientist would talk as you do.

I'm now out of this ridiculous discussion.

 

[origin]

I understand about kinetics .

It appears that you do not.

I have a problem with tour point. that particles are drifting . As you said about concentration increase , apparently you are missing , the point that increase concentration introduce volume and volume refers to boundary and as you bring the particle closer to gether you are compressing, the free space for the particles .

The last sentence is where your error is. The particles of water do not compress the air. If there is dust in the air do you think the pressure is higher? The air is not contained in a closed volume so if you add water particles the air is not compressed it just moves out of the way.

When you say you worked R&D for 17 years what did you do?

 

[timojin]

I give up. I do not believe you have worked in a lab as any form of scientist. Do you have any qualification in physical science? I must say I really doubt it. You may have cleaned the bottles or looked after the stores, but no half way competent scientist would talk as you do.

I'm now out of this ridiculous discussion.

You can be out, there us no problem . You in you model are also forgetting that there are gas molecules in between the particles . in your model you ignore partial pressure of water vapor .
Why don't counter my point by point instead coming out with insults .
Your ridicules view of droplets drifting alone. You don't seam to understand when you invoke density you mention a fixed volume , that makes increase in density.

 

[DaveC426913]

Why don't counter my point by point

This has been done, multiple times in this thread.

Your lack of desire - or lack of ability - to understand the physics of condensation is beyond our power.

I'm all for education, but I think this is a waste of my time as well.