Why aren't all animals becoming smarter?

I'm thinking there must be another factor for all species to have a similar rate of evolution... :scratchin:
Evolutionary biologists (and to a lesser extent, palaeontologists) seem to be hung up on the biochemical aspects of evolution. Evolution is sponsored by a change in behaviour and a change in behaviour is promoted by a change in the environment. Thus the primary control on evolutionary change is, arguably, the rate of environmental change, which will have a similar effect upon all organisms. (Though the rate at which they adapt to it may vary, this will not be discernible in the fossil record.)
 
(my underline)

:bugeye:

I'm finding this odd. To me seems logic that, even though the mutation rate is not dependent on generation time, evolution rates, in the other hand, will depend to a reasonably good extent on generation time.

If we consider for a moment only the propulsion by mutations of the changes in genetic frequencies within two populations of different drastic generation times, even if the population size and mutation rates are the same for each population, the fact that the generation time alone is different will result in much more mutations, changing the genetic frequencies, in one than in the other, in the same time.

And even if we put natural selection into account, that would not change much the picture, it's not as if natural selection could restrict the evolution in a "N new fixations per time", irrespective of other variables such as generation time, unless we artificially invent the selection coefficients of each population to do so (which makes no sense at all).


...ops, reading the following posts it does not look that bad...



But yet, higher reproductive rates/larger populations will provide a larger amount of mutations in less time, independently of how much does it take to any of these eventually reaching fixation. These populations would then usually be richer in genetic variation, even though it could (or maybe would) still be somewhat proportional when compared with organisms of small populations and longer generation times.

And speaking of fixation, evolution is not the fixation of mutations within a population whose size remains constant. There are populational splits which will effectively fixate mutations quicker. Splits can happen in both situations, but with lower reproductive rates the likelihood of success over time is much lower, by many reasons. They can only have less "attempts" in the same time period, the new populations are from the start more impoverished in absolute genetic variation, will only "restore" it slower, they would require larger territories and amounts of food for each "deme", etc.

And finally, not regarding this sort of event, speaking of fixation in a constant-population scenario, the Haldane's calculations about substitution costs suggests that a mutation would reach fixation in about 300 generations (with a bunch of assumptions)... the shorter the generation time is, the quicker it would be.



...I just hope I'm not missing something that would render all these points totally null, but it can always happen :shrug:

Hmm I have to reconsider spurious's point, althought it's obviously a factor. I believe generation time must be a more important one.
I agree with this post :)
 
Evolutionary biologists (and to a lesser extent, palaeontologists) seem to be hung up on the biochemical aspects of evolution. Evolution is sponsored by a change in behaviour and a change in behaviour is promoted by a change in the environment. Thus the primary control on evolutionary change is, arguably, the rate of environmental change, which will have a similar effect upon all organisms. (Though the rate at which they adapt to it may vary, this will not be discernible in the fossil record.)

While this is true probably not all organisms would be affected by this change. It's not unthinkable that certain niches will stay virtually unchanged.
 
Evolutionary biologists (and to a lesser extent, palaeontologists) seem to be hung up on the biochemical aspects of evolution. Evolution is sponsored by a change in behaviour and a change in behaviour is promoted by a change in the environment. Thus the primary control on evolutionary change is, arguably, the rate of environmental change, which will have a similar effect upon all organisms. (Though the rate at which they adapt to it may vary, this will not be discernible in the fossil record.)

Hmm I have to reconsider spurious's point, althought it's obviously a factor. I believe generation time must be a more important one.
I agree with this post :)



harmful/benefical mutations are population depended. That is if you believe in the nearly neutral theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nearly_neutral_theory_of_molecular_evolution
In large populations harmful genes are less likely to be incorporated in the genepool. Luck plays an important role in incorporating harmful genes into populations. In smaller population it is easier to get lucky, easier to incorporate a harmful mutation

Apparently the really neutral genetic material such as 'junk' DNA does mutate based on generation time.
.
 
harmful/benefical mutations are population depended. That is if you believe in the nearly neutral theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nearly_neutral_theory_of_molecular_evolution
In large populations harmful genes are less likely to be incorporated in the genepool. Luck plays an important role in incorporating harmful genes into populations. In smaller population it is easier to get lucky, easier to incorporate a harmful mutation

Apparently the really neutral genetic material such as 'junk' DNA does mutate based on generation time.
.

This is true but it doesn't explain the rapid rate of adaption of micro-organisms such as bacteria.
 
This is true but it doesn't explain the rapid rate of adaption of micro-organisms such as bacteria.

Bacteria have extremely sloppy proofreading. They evolve shit fast mainly because of this.

Viruses have even sloppier proofreading. They evolve even faster than bacteria, and you can see clear differences between the viruses that have some and those that have none proofreading capability.

Bacteria adapt fast not only because of mutation rates. They carry along a lot of variation which is passed on to others by means of sex in times of environmental stress.
 
Bacteria have extremely sloppy proofreading. They evolve shit fast mainly because of this.

Viruses have even sloppier proofreading. They evolve even faster than bacteria, and you can see clear differences between the viruses that have some and those that have none proofreading capability.

Bacteria adapt fast not only because of mutation rates. They carry along a lot of variation which is passed on to others by means of sex in times of environmental stress.

Hmm yeah. Would this sloppy proofreading be 'on purpose' to facilitate fast evolution in these organisms in you opinion ?
 
Hmm yeah. Would this sloppy proofreading be 'on purpose' to facilitate fast evolution in these organisms in you opinion ?

no, it is just how it works.

The immune system had to be 'invented' to cope with the fast evolution of viruses though. Since in no way could a mammal compete with the evolution of a virus on a one on one level. So mammals cheat with their immune system.

(and other animals too)
 
no, it is just how it works.

The immune system had to be 'invented' to cope with the fast evolution of viruses though. Since in no way could a mammal compete with the evolution of a virus on a one on one level. So mammals cheat with their immune system.

(and other animals too)

Yes, but what I mean is that maybe these micro-organisms have an advantage by evolving fast so it would be selected upon. In this way a certain 'sloppyness' of the proofreading is necessary to be a successful micro-organism.
I admit that this doesn't sound right, just wondering.
 
Yes, but what I mean is that maybe these micro-organisms have an advantage by evolving fast so it would be selected upon. In this way a certain 'sloppyness' of the proofreading is necessary to be a successful micro-organism.
I admit that this doesn't sound right, just wondering.

If you follow your logic it would be the other way around.

Eukaryotes evolved later than prokaryotes. Fast evolution existed before there was slow evolution. If there was such an advantage to fast mutation rates it would have been uncompetitive to have slower mutation rates.

Hence, mutation rates are not everything.

In fact the fastest mutation rates of the fastest evolving viruses border on suicide. Faster evolution would mean that they would lose their form altogether.

Mutation rate isn't always that good. If what you have is good then there is no need to change.

In fact, it can be argued that any large change is per definition bad (as in the chances that a large change is bad is higher than that of a small change; the changes that a large change is good is low. The chances that a small change is good is slightly higher).
Change upon change upon change constitute a large change. The chances are high the change will not be good.
 
If you follow your logic it would be the other way around.
Eukaryotes evolved later than prokaryotes. Fast evolution existed before there was slow evolution. If there was such an advantage to fast mutation rates it would have been uncompetitive to have slower mutation rates.

Hence, mutation rates are not everything. ...
I can agree completely with your last quoted sentence, but it punches a big hole in the logic of those that proceed it. I.e. Eukaryotes may have many other advantages and developed IN SPITE OF slower mutation / evolution. I am not say that slower mutation / evolution is either an advantage or a disadvantage. (I expect that depends on what type of organism you are when all else is equal.)

All I am trying to do is expose faulty logic. As you say: "mutation rates are not everything."

Also I undestand that some viruses (retro-viruses?) have special parts of their genetic information with high mutation rates and that this helps them avoid being eliminated. It is also my understanding that other parts are much more stable -resistant to mutation to help them keep theior essential features.

I think you know more about this than I do - so please comment (on both the correctness, or not, of your logic and on this special sections of genetic information with different mutation rates idea, I think I have read somewhere.
 
Well I was talking about fast evolution not fast mutation. What Billy said about parts that can be mutated easily and parts that have better protection from mutation makes sense to me.
But a stable rate of evolution (not too fast, not too slow) seems necessary to protect organisms from 'losing form'.
 
Also I undestand that some viruses (retro-viruses?) have special parts of their genetic information with high mutation rates and that this helps them avoid being eliminated. It is also my understanding that other parts are much more stable -resistant to mutation to help them keep theior essential features.

There are several things going one here. First I would like to address a simple principle:

1. what works stays, what doesn't work is eliminated.

There is no active mechanism as such in place that sees in the future and tries to keep things that might be good for the future. The high mutation rates are therefore not a means of safeguarding against an uncertain future, but are the result of a highly stressful past! A large conceptual difference that has to be addressed although of course a lot of people will say that it is obvious.

2. mechanical constraints.


I know that in the Eukaryotic DNA there are regions that have a higher mutation rate than other regions. And I am talking about actual mutation rates, not the selection that will take place after the mutation has taken place. Some regions just see more mutations than others.

I do not know if this is also the case in viruses. Their genome is rather small. One would expect that it would be more difficult to have regions that have different qualities that raise or lower mutations rates.

Certain regions in the viral genome do evolve faster than others, regions such as the ones responsible for virion assembly and genome packaging usually evolve slower and are used for phylogenetic studies. But in this case it is not a reflection of mutation rate, but structural importance.

Fast mutation rates of RNA viruses

There are different types of viruses (like for instance the broad classes of DNA vs RNA viruses - however, in reality the complexity of the grouping is of course much more prominent), and some classes have higher mutation rates just because of how they work. RNA viruses mutate faster than DNA ones. Some RNA viruses mutate faster than other RNA virus families.

Genetic variation can be induced in the RNA virus through various mechanism, such as mutation, homologous and nonhomologous recombination, and genome segment reassortment. Different virus families use these mechanisms in different ways.

Especially in RNA viruses errors in genetic duplication are common, but variable among the different classes! The error rates in the duplication of RNA viruses can vary between 10-[sup]3[/sup] to 10[sup]-5[/sup] (sorry, can't find superscript). The error rate is the amount of substitutions per round of copying.

The error rate of duplication in DNA viruses is much lower.

The main reason for this high mutation rate during duplication is the low efficiency of the proofreading capability of the RNA replicases and transcriptases.


3. the principle of arms race/environmental stress

For the virus the high mutation rates aren't necessarily bad. A high mutation rate guarantees the presence of a high degree of variation. In times of environmental stress (ass in the host is not cooperating nicely) this can lead to rapid evolution.

However, with mutation rates that are too high you can pass the so-called error threshold. It's value depends largely on the information that needs to be maintained and value of the mutated genome compared to the original. Passing the error threshold will mean that essential genetic information will be lost. Not good.

RNA viruses replicate and mutate very close to this error threshold. Simply increasing the mutation rate by experimental means can push such a virus beyond the threshold into doom and extinction.


general reference:
Domingo and Holland. Annual Review of Microbiology Vol. 51: 151-178
 
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...There is no active mechanism as such in place that sees in the future and tries to keep things that might be good for the future. ...
Of course that is true - only believers in predestination / God's great plan, etc. would think that possible - I certainly never said anything along those lines. Why do you mention it in reply to me?
...I know that in the Eukaryotic DNA there are regions that have a higher mutation rate than other regions. And I am talking about actual mutation rates, not the selection that will take place after the mutation has taken place. Some regions just see more mutations than others.
I do not know if this is also the case in viruses. ... Certain regions in the viral genome do evolve faster than others, regions such as the ones responsible for virion assembly and genome packaging usually evolve slower and are used for phylogenetic studies. ...
It seems you do know. I too thought this was the case. Why I spoke of their more stable regions preserving their "esential characteristics." (Structure, way of replicating, are especially important.)
...There are different types of viruses (like for instance the broad classes of DNA vs RNA viruses -...
I was aware of thses two main types. Why I spoke of "genetic information" without specifying which type (concievably there may be hybirds or schemes yet unknown by man, so I wanted to be general as the details of how the "genetic information" is recorded in molecules is not very important for current discusion of mutation rates, unles you are interested in these details.)
...Genetic variation can be induced in the RNA virus through various mechanism, ... Especially in RNA viruses errors in genetic duplication are common, but variable among the different classes! The error rates in the duplication of RNA viruses can vary between 10-3 to 10-5 (sorry, can't find superscript). The error rate is the amount of substitutions per round of copying.
The error rate of duplication in DNA viruses is much lower.
The main reason for this high mutation rate during duplication is the low efficiency of the proofreading capability of the RNA replicases and transcriptases.
Thanks - I did not know that.
...For the virus the high mutation rates aren't necessarily bad. A high mutation rate guarantees the presence of a high degree of variation. In times of environmental stress (ass in the host is not cooperating nicely) this can lead to rapid evolution.
this is true in general. For example, I cite the fact that the bigger-brained and stronger Neanderthals may have caused a greater evolution rate in humans and thus provoke humans to perfect what I call the "real-time-simulation" of our enviroment, which I (as a crackpot) suggest is what we percieve instead of the orthodox cognitive sciense POV that we perceive the end result of many neural stages of computations that "emerges." I.e. I suggested years ago, that humans first to evolve a real-time understanding of the enviroment and may have "exploded out of Africa" 50,000BP killing off all other humanoids who because of neural processing delays of their "emerging perceptions" were much more vunerable to a thrown spear or rock.
...value depends largely on the information that needs to be maintained and value of the mutated genome compared to the original.
Exactly my point, especailly as the future is unknown. For example, when feeling more pesimistic than usual, I suggest that nature's experment with "big brained creastures" (meaning humans who can make nuclear weapons, do genetic engineering / planning as if they did know the future needs) is probably her "greatest mistake."

BTW, I too can not make exponents or formulae with strange symbols, so for exponets I just use the ^ key. I.e. 10^3 etc. Hope you find that helpful.
 
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As a side note, quote this post to get [SUP]superscript[/SUP] tags.
 
Let me ask you this, are humans getting smarter? Personally, I think the average human is getting dumber. The smart get smarter and the average gets dumber and dumber.
Just an observation!
 
I think your observation is based on an illusion created by the increasing gap between the smartest and dumbest. The gap can, however, increase even if both the dumbest and smartest are getting smarter over time, although with different speeds.
It is kind of saying that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, although the life is getting better constantly.
 
If the human level of smartness is so rare on earth,
and does not seem to be the norm
perhaps the idea that other planets eventually produce
civilisations is just wrong.
 
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