Who killed the Electric Car?

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phlogistician said:
Oh boy, $25,000 for a frikking pram?
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You know, I agree with you, it doesn't appeal to me much either.

If I were buying tomorrow, I'd buy a vehicle conversion. This guy, for instance, takes old cars with good bodies (which I'm sure he gets for next to nothing), rips out the ICE and electrifies them for very reasonable prices:

http://grassrootsev.com/convert.htm

The drawback is the old battery technology. It will still be a couple more years for newer tech batteries to become widely available at the hobbyist level.
 
apeweek said:
. The Toyota RAV4 EV, for instance, used 95ah batteries which have now disappeared from the market, replaced by batteries less than 10ah in size.
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I bought an 85Ah battery only six weeks ago, and 115Ah are easily available.
 
swivel said:
I think it would be cool if we could go back to these:
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{picture of horse}

Not only is Brazil far ahead of US in use of alcohol fuel but also in the use of these "direct grass-powered" transport systems. (As sugar cane is a grass, our alcohol powered cars are "indirect grass-powered" transport systems.)

Both direct and indirect systems are widely used in all but the largest cities. Even there, a few of the direct-powered version still circulate.
 
MetaKron said:
Show me one example of this. There is no advantage to such a setup and I know of no cars that are like that.
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The Toyota Prius, Ford Escape, Honda Civic hybrid, and Honda Insight are all parallel hybrids.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/fueleconomy/articles/45188/article.html
To explore how a hybrid works, however, we first have to distinguish between the two major ways automakers use gas-electric hybrids.

The first type can propel itself using only the electric motor at very low speeds. The electric motor also has the ability to kick in and help out the gasoline engine when more power is needed, such as when passing or climbing a steep grade. The Toyota Prius and the Ford Escape Hybrid fall into this category.

The second type uses the electric motor only to assist the gasoline engine when it needs extra boost, again during brisk acceleration or when going up a hill. The Civic Hybrid and Honda Insight fall into the second category.
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Here's another page for you:
http://www.weather.com/activities/driving/greenvehicle/hevhow.html
In current production hybrids both the engine and the electric motor are connected to the wheels by the same transmission. With the assistance of the electric motor the engine can be smaller.
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Here is some information on how the drive trains of the Prius and Insight work to allow the motor and engine to power the car in parallel.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car1.htm
The Honda Insight is a simplified parallel hybrid. It has an electric motor coupled to the engine at the spot where the flywheel usually goes. Honda calls this system "Integrated Motor Assist." ...The electric motor on the Insight helps in several ways. It can:
* Assist the gasoline engine, providing extra power while the car is accelerating or climbing a hill
* Provide some regenerative braking to capture energy during braking
* Start the engine, eliminating the need for a starter.
...
One of the main goals of the Toyota Prius is to improve emissions in urban driving. To accomplish this, Toyota has designed a parallel hybrid powertrain."
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Carcano said:
So far they don't seem to have any commercial application up and running. Have they partnered with any auto company?
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Well, it appears that Electro Energy is partnering with Altair Nanotechnology - developer of an advanced nonotechnology-based version of the li-ion battery.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/03/altairnano_and_.html
http://www.altairnano.com/

In turn, Altair Nano is partnering with Phoenix Motorcars to build vehicles.

http://blog.wired.com/cars/index.blog?entry_id=1515444
http://phoenixmotorcars.com
 
apeweek said:
Where did you buy an 85ah NIMH battery?
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Google 'leisure battery' and you'll find many and various stockists of large capacity batteries. They are used for powering appliances in motorhomes, RV's and boats.

I'm not sure what current they can consistently sustain, but I'm sure the numbers are out there somewhere.
 
phlogistician said:
Google 'leisure battery' and you'll find many and various stockists of large capacity batteries. They are used for powering appliances in motorhomes, RV's and boats.

I'm not sure what current they can consistently sustain, but I'm sure the numbers are out there somewhere.
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Of course large capacity batteries are on the market. I drive an EV with 18 of them. (Lead-acid.)

The issue is high-AH NIMH batteries, which Cobasys doesn't allow to be sold for EV use. Some large NIMH batteries are available, and are used in hybrids. But Cobasys won't allow any licensee to cut a deal with an EV manufacturer for NIMHs.
 
apeweek said:
Of course large capacity batteries are on the market. I drive an EV with 18 of them. (Lead-acid.)

The issue is high-AH NIMH batteries,
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Ah, the paragraph where you said the large capacity batteries for the Rav4 had disappeared, you didn't specify they were NIMH.

You can buy 25Ah NIMH though, but afaik the chemistry of NIMH makes it hard to make them any bigger, and they don't work well in parallel, plus large arrays of them require very careful charging, so they are a pain the arse.

LiPo might be the future, ...
 
phlogistician said:
Ah, the paragraph where you said the large capacity batteries for the Rav4 had disappeared, you didn't specify they were NIMH.

You can buy 25Ah NIMH though, but afaik the chemistry of NIMH makes it hard to make them any bigger, and they don't work well in parallel, plus large arrays of them require very careful charging, so they are a pain the arse.

LiPo might be the future, ...
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Well, it's not the chemistry of NIMH that limits battery size; it's the patent holders. Some of the existing RAV4 EVs on the road have NIMH battery packs with over 100,000 miles already - so clearly the batteries work fine, and a few high-AH NIMHS are still made for hybrids.

LiPo has its own issues; there is no absolutely perfect battery. But I agree that lithium batteries and supercapacitors are the place to look now.
 
These batteries that aren't allowed to be sold for use in electric cars, can any citizen buy them? They can't control what a private citizen does with his 110 amp-hour battery, I don't think anyway.
 
MetaKron said:
These batteries that aren't allowed to be sold for use in electric cars, can any citizen buy them? They can't control what a private citizen does with his 110 amp-hour battery, I don't think anyway.
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Not cost-effective. You could possibly get appropriate NIMHs from a car dealership, by posing as a hybrid owner. But expect the price to be outrageous, especially if you were able to buy enough of them to power an EV.

The whole idea behind advanced battery technologies is to be able to increase your driving range at an affordable price. If I spend more on batteries than I would on 20 years worth of gasoline, there's not much point.
 
Interesting development this week, here's a new website - this is evidently another Chinese EV manufacturer (the poorly constructed English on the site is the giveaway) offering electric vehicles AND serial hybrids for sale. He has several models, all of which do freeway speeds, have ranges over 100 miles, and have price tags well under $10,000. In hybrid mode, they have ranges closer to 300 miles.

http://www.fevehicle.com/services.html

Reading the website, he seems to believe he will have no problem meeting certification to run on US roads (I wish I was as optimistic.)

From the battery pictures I see, he appears to be running the cars on the same Chinese 'Thunder Sky' lithium batteries we've talked about here before.

I know the reaction this will get from some of us here, but if nothing else, this should at least demonstrate that electric vehicles can indeed be made at affordable prices.
 
What are those^^^ cars...pure electrics, hybrids?
Couldn't make heads or tails out of the text.

Do they have a US distributor?
 
Carcano said:
What are those^^^ cars...pure electrics, hybrids?
Couldn't make heads or tails out of the text.

Do they have a US distributor?
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They are EVs, with a generator option (which would make them serial hybrids.)

Unlike the present crop of hybrids some of us drive, the electric drive is primary. The optional gas engine just charges the batteries. Since it's optional, it's probably removable, for when you don't need it.

As to the low prices, I think these are very simple EVs, no regenerative braking, for instance. Also, I was wrong about the Li-Ion batteries, they apparently use lead-acid batteries.

As to distribution, my guess is he's fishing for someone to help him sell cars here.

Someone should tell him to hire copywriters and web designers too.
 
apeweek said:
Someone should tell him to hire copywriters and web designers too.
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Right! Shouldn't be too hard to find ONE person who can type out their specs in decent english.

Removable gas generators sound like a great idea!
 
You heard it here first people!

We were talking about this a few months ago, no? And apparently GM was listening!

They have just unveiled their concept for the most sensible of all hybrid designs - a 'series hybrid' with a small gas engine generating electricity at an optimal rpm for re-charging the battery.
http://www.gizmag.com/go/6693/1/
 
Carcano said:
You heard it here first people!

We were talking about this a few months ago, no? And apparently GM was listening!

They have just unveiled their concept for the most sensible of all hybrid designs - a 'series hybrid' with a small gas engine generating electricity at an optimal rpm for re-charging the battery.
http://www.gizmag.com/go/6693/1/
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How very, very interesting! Corporations are amusing to watch. GM seems delighted about 1996... all of a sudden.
 
Lets get those cars into people's hands again

The US has the ability to support 87% of the current popultion possessing an electric car.

It funny that that it would be stated that the electric car can not support all the needs of people with examples like "you can't drive from one city to another". How many people drive between cities? Its not that I don't think there are plenty of them, its that most don't.

The demand for these cars are high! With so much demand its like a vacuum. Their is little the car companies need to do to sell them. So we know right there that someone has to be stopping them. You have all this "drive" or people going out of their way to get them, that it creates something like a huge wave. So it takes something rather powerful to stand in front of that wave and take the full brunt of the force and win.

IMO these cars are not important. We could all be doing alot more important things then worring about electric cars. But because someone is working so hard to keep these from getting into consumer hands we have to stop for a moment and demand that this get put right. I could care less about someone making alot of money selling "power" to the world. But when that means that lives on this planet are in danger because of it, we need a new source of power.

Its no wounder realy big oil guys live in a nuclear fallout bunkers. They are afraid of the world's population. I have no intention of harming anyone, but deep down these guys knows that they deserve the kind of rath that only a nuclear bunker can protect them from. This is not a treat, just an observation.
 
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