Who are we?

[Seattle]

Why is it ridicules ? or is it that you don't like it ?

It's not about me not liking it. It's your use of interaction and your analogies. A ventilator being on or off has nothing to do with interaction. You are made up of atoms. They aren't "interacting" with you. They are you. Your foot is you. It's not something that is apart from you. It's like saying "My foot interacted with my foot".

 

[DaveC426913]

Why is it ridicules ? or is it that you don't like it ?

Because it makes no sense. And makes even less sense in the context of this thread.

 

[hansda]

Not according to my philosophy.

According to your philosophy, how you will distinguish between life and death in terms of atomic particles.

I would think only in the sense that life is based on molecules that can self-replicate, and such molecules are composed of atomic particles.

What do you mean by self-replicate? Which molecule or atomic particle can self-replicate?

 

[hansda]

I didn't say that atoms don't move but when my foot moves there isn't any interaction between me and my foot.

When your foot moves, is it moving on its own or you are applying some force to your foot to move it. If you are applying some force to move your foot, then definitely some interaction is happening.

My foot is part of "me".

Correct.

I don't really see that there is a point to be made.

If you are not applying any force to your foot, it will remain in its state of inertia.

 

[hansda]

Simply a product of Evolution.

How the atomic particles can evolve?

 

[quantum_wave]

According to your philosophy, how you will distinguish between life and death in terms of atomic particles.

Reprodution is the key. I agree that life is a special subset of atomic particles, that take the from of DNA molecules. DNA plays a key roll in how living things reproduce. I distinguish between living things and non-living things by saying that the DNA molecule is the key to life and reproduction. I distinguish between living and dead by saying that a living things always die, and when they die, they no longer can reproduce (although there can be some intervention where the DNA of dead life forms can be extracted and implanted in living cells).

What do you mean by self-replicate? Which molecule or atomic particle can self-replicate?

That is a characteristic of the DNA molecule.

 

[hansda]

Nor can a dollar buy you a house. But get a million of em together...

Your body is composed of 7 billion billion billion atoms (that's 27 zeroes) in the form of molecules. Some of those molecules receive light, some capture airborne chemicals in the form of aromas. Some serve as memory (storing such things as the smell of food and the urge to eat.) Some produce electrical signals that travel along nerves (more molecules) to other molecules that make up your muscles. If the signals are coordinated enough, the entire collection of molecules picks up a sharp bone and moves toward the source of the aroma.

Are you implying that every molecule has a life element.

I am first showing that chemistry is the basis for molecular activity, that molecualt actiibty is the basis for simple life, and then that simple life is the basis for complex life.

Why this chemistry works only in a living cell but this chemistry does not work in a dead cell.

Ultimately, yes. Sunlight and chemistry.

Sunlight is the driver for all chemistry on Earth (except that which comes from the still-molten core).

Take away sunlight for long enough, and the chemistry - upon which our thoughts are based - will definitely stop.

Sunlight basically are photon particles. So, without these photons we will not be able to think?

 

[hansda]

That is a characteristic of the DNA molecule.

Why the DNA molecule of a dead cell can not replicate?

 

[quantum_wave]

Why the DNA molecule of a dead cell can not replicate?

It is my understanding that "dead" means it can't self replicate or reproduce; "living" means it can.

 

[exchemist]

Why the DNA molecule of a dead cell can not replicate?

Because replication involves a complex series of biochemical reactions, which are no longer functioning in a dead cell.

There may be many reasons for its death: damage to the membrane so the contents leak out, lack of oxygen or nutrients for respiration, so lack of energy to drive the reactions, the presence of some chemical that interferes with the biochemistry and disrupts it, lack of water for the cytoplasm to maintain the correct concentration of electrolytes, etc etc. Any one of these can prevent replication being possible.

You seem to be searching for some kind of woo here, by which "life"can be associated with individual atoms. This is a baseless supposition.

 

[quantum_wave]

Because replication involves a complex series of biochemical reactions, which are no longer functioning in a dead cell.

There may be many reasons for its death: damage to the membrane so the contents leak out, lack of oxygen or nutrients for respiration, so lack of energy to drive the reactions, the presence of some chemical that interferes with the biochemistry and disrupts it, lack of water for the cytoplasm to maintain the correct concentration of electrolytes, etc etc. Any one of these can prevent replication being possible.

You seem to be searching for some kind of woo here, by which "life"can be associated with individual atoms. This is a baseless supposition.

The idea that life can be associated with individual atoms, or even a single DNA molecule without the necessary associated complex chemical environment needed to sustain life, does qualify as woo in my book too.

However, if one is searching for a connection between the existence of matter, and the existence of life, then my philosophy includes the concept that the universe has always existed, and has always supported life by continually providing environments where life can be generated naturally, and where life forms can evolve to intelligent, self aware, free willed beings.

Maybe Hansda can find some solace in that kind of thinking.

 

[Seattle]

Why the DNA molecule of a dead cell can not replicate?

Why the foot of a dead man can't move? Why the sunshine not visible on a cloudy day? Why the Beatles not the Rolling Stones?

 

[exchemist]

The idea that life can be associated with individual atoms, or even a single DNA molecule without the necessary associated complex chemical environment needed to sustain life, does qualify as woo in my book too.

However, if one is searching for a connection between the existence of matter, and the existence of life, then my philosophy includes the concept that the universe has always existed, and has always supported life by continually providing environments where life can be generated naturally, and where life forms can evolve to intelligent, self aware, free willed beings.

Maybe Hansda can find some solace in that kind of thinking.

I find it a splendid thing that thermodynamics, by which energy in the universe gradually runs down to lower and lower degrees of availability (i.e. increasing entropy), can nevertheless drive the generation of pockets of high-degree order (low entropy) in living organisms as it does so. It is really this, I think, that makes so many people search for something mystical about the processes of life, even though they may not articulate it in quite that way.

If we ever do elucidate the mechanism of abiogenesis in any detail I expect it will seem less wonderful, just as has happened with many other natural phenomena.

 

[DaveC426913]

Are you implying that every molecule has a life element.

I am not.

Life is a particular culmination of uncountable chemical reactions.

There is no "spark of life".

Why this chemistry works only in a living cell but this chemistry does not work in a dead cell.

Because the process of life is delicate. Any part breaks down and they all break down.

Ever siphon water out of a fish tank? You only get outflow if the whole system is set up correctly and stays set up correctly.
If you don't keep watch on the system, and the inflow slips out of the water, introducing air, the siphoning will come to a stop.

There's no single element of the siphon that drives water up and out of the tank and down the train, it is the entire system, started up and working together that keeps it going.

Sunlight basically are photon particles. So, without these photons we will not be able to think?

Sunlight is energy.
Energy powers chemistry. Chemistry powers biology. Biology powers cognition.

 

[DaveC426913]

Why the DNA molecule of a dead cell can not replicate?

Because it's part of a complex ecosystem of fluids, oxygen, proteins, enzymes and building blocks.

 

[quantum_wave]

I find it a splendid thing that thermodynamics, by which energy in the universe gradually runs down to lower and lower degrees of availability (i.e. increasing entropy), can nevertheless drive the generation of pockets of high-degree order (low entropy) in living organisms as it does so. It is really this, I think, that makes so many people search for something mystical about the processes of life, even though they may not articulate it in quite that way.

If we ever do elucidate the mechanism of abiogenesis in any detail I expect it will seem less wonderful, just as has happened with many other natural phenomena.

Yes, agreed. I call it the "as yet" unknown, and stipulate that anything that seems supernatural, has natural causes that we don't yet understand.

 

[exchemist]

Yes, agreed. I call it the "as yet" unknown, and stipulate that anything that seems supernatural, has natural causes that we don't yet understand.

Agreed. That is the only approach relevant to science: methodological naturalism.

 

[hansda]

I find it a splendid thing that thermodynamics, by which energy in the universe gradually runs down to lower and lower degrees of availability (i.e. increasing entropy), can nevertheless drive the generation of pockets of high-degree order (low entropy) in living organisms as it does so. It is really this, I think, that makes so many people search for something mystical about the processes of life, even though they may not articulate it in quite that way.

So, entropy of a living cell decreases, whereas entropy of a dead cell increases; though both the cells are made of atomic particles. Isnt this mysterious?

If we ever do elucidate the mechanism of abiogenesis in any detail I expect it will seem less wonderful, just as has happened with many other natural phenomena.

Sperm and Ovum, both are made of atomic particles. Union of a sperm cell and ovum cell generates life. This is the nature's way of continuing life. Isnt this also mysterious?

 

[hansda]

Yes, agreed. I call it the "as yet" unknown, and stipulate that anything that seems supernatural, has natural causes that we don't yet understand.

There are many mysteries for which current science/physics has no answer. For example in the Hindu customs after death, the dead body is burnt. It is common observation that all the body parts get burned and turn into ashes except one body part. Why it so happens. It is still mysterious.

 

[quantum_wave]

There are many mysteries for which current science/physics has no answer. For example in the Hindu customs after death, the dead body is burnt. It is common observation that all the body parts get burned and turn into ashes except one body part. Why it so happens. It is still mysterious.

That is mysterious. Tell me about more details; what part is it? Why do you think it doesn't burn?