Dave, I don't want to spin this topic out of balance here, but ...
Yes, religion itself is a pain. But we can't say that that and exempt any specific group. I understand the difference between the two in your context, but I still need to check in on it.
Somewhere in my library I have a copy of Weber's "Christianity and the Rise of Capitalism," which essentially demonstrates that only something as strange and ill-conceived as the Church of England could possibly spawn such a vicious progeny as the link between Christianity and American capitalism.
In the US, there's not really any problem like we hear about on the news, insofar as sects and splinter groups are concerned. But we currently live under federal laws that encourage a further consolidation of wealth in a smaller segment of society. Religious and economic conservatism go almost hand in hand among the fifty states.
So I agree, we don't often hear of Koresh-type groups through most of the first-tier Christian world. But sentiments concerning expression, crime and punishment, medicine, and economy itself--all inspired by alleged faith (how faithful can most be if faith is indoctrinated from birth with no acceptable alternative?)--encourage those conditions which Christians consider ungodly. (e. g.--Build more prisons, tighten up sentences, undermine the criminal defense mechanism, arm the population. These are the "economic" solutions which US conservatism offers for our crime problem. Dollars for education? It's bad for the economy, since we can "invest" that money in something that will bring us "fiscal growth".)
I don't want to single out Christians for hostility in general. It's just that when I'm hostile toward churches, it's usually a Christian church that incited it. But they're no different than every other "Church" religion, damaging and wrong.
For instance, I'm 26. As an adult, I can "choose", as such, to be racist. I can also "choose" to follow a religion, and in that, I can "choose" to advocate bad ideas.
I guess I would like to turn your question back to you: How many Muslim, Sikh, or otherwise, routinely advocate codified discrimination through the ballot box? How many Muslim, Sikh, Buddhist, Satanist, or what-have-you routinely ask school boards to remove books? In 1982, Twisted Sister's "Under the Blade" album was actually banned from sale in the States by an act of US Congress, because it offended some people's religious sensibilities. (Incidentally, the cause was two occasions of the word "sh_t" and the use of the phrase "shoot them down with the f_cking gun".)
Wrong is still wrong, whether you use the ballot box to enforce the Three-fifths rule, or a rifle to advance your godhead. Christians don't behave themselves.
Irish history, whether six centuries' worth or merely the last four decades, demonstrates that Christians do not behave themselves.
I'm not referring to mad bombers like the abortion clinic murderers in the US. (Incidentally, the guy who shot Dr. Gunn a few years back did work at an outreach center and had been in a prayer group shortly beforehand.)
I'll sum up here 'cause I'm running longer than I intended.
We seem to single out Christianity in this group, though it's probably a common association. If Pat Robertson says something dumb, it doesn't make the Satanic Church look bad. So we pick on the Christians either because we believe they deserve it, or else it's the Least Common Denominator, as such. We could argue about Yasser Arafat, I suppose, but I don't know enough Muslim history or faith to approach the subject in depth.
But in being aware of our singling out of Christianity, we must also take care not to excuse it exclusively. The best reason I know to perceive threat in Christianity is that its people so regularly exercise their liberty to attempt to counteract liberty itself.
But the perception of behavior in that context is entirely subjective.
thx,
Tiassa
------------------
"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited August 21, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited August 21, 1999).]
Yes, religion itself is a pain. But we can't say that that and exempt any specific group. I understand the difference between the two in your context, but I still need to check in on it.
Somewhere in my library I have a copy of Weber's "Christianity and the Rise of Capitalism," which essentially demonstrates that only something as strange and ill-conceived as the Church of England could possibly spawn such a vicious progeny as the link between Christianity and American capitalism.
In the US, there's not really any problem like we hear about on the news, insofar as sects and splinter groups are concerned. But we currently live under federal laws that encourage a further consolidation of wealth in a smaller segment of society. Religious and economic conservatism go almost hand in hand among the fifty states.
So I agree, we don't often hear of Koresh-type groups through most of the first-tier Christian world. But sentiments concerning expression, crime and punishment, medicine, and economy itself--all inspired by alleged faith (how faithful can most be if faith is indoctrinated from birth with no acceptable alternative?)--encourage those conditions which Christians consider ungodly. (e. g.--Build more prisons, tighten up sentences, undermine the criminal defense mechanism, arm the population. These are the "economic" solutions which US conservatism offers for our crime problem. Dollars for education? It's bad for the economy, since we can "invest" that money in something that will bring us "fiscal growth".)
I don't want to single out Christians for hostility in general. It's just that when I'm hostile toward churches, it's usually a Christian church that incited it. But they're no different than every other "Church" religion, damaging and wrong.
For instance, I'm 26. As an adult, I can "choose", as such, to be racist. I can also "choose" to follow a religion, and in that, I can "choose" to advocate bad ideas.
I guess I would like to turn your question back to you: How many Muslim, Sikh, or otherwise, routinely advocate codified discrimination through the ballot box? How many Muslim, Sikh, Buddhist, Satanist, or what-have-you routinely ask school boards to remove books? In 1982, Twisted Sister's "Under the Blade" album was actually banned from sale in the States by an act of US Congress, because it offended some people's religious sensibilities. (Incidentally, the cause was two occasions of the word "sh_t" and the use of the phrase "shoot them down with the f_cking gun".)
Wrong is still wrong, whether you use the ballot box to enforce the Three-fifths rule, or a rifle to advance your godhead. Christians don't behave themselves.
Irish history, whether six centuries' worth or merely the last four decades, demonstrates that Christians do not behave themselves.
I'm not referring to mad bombers like the abortion clinic murderers in the US. (Incidentally, the guy who shot Dr. Gunn a few years back did work at an outreach center and had been in a prayer group shortly beforehand.)
I'll sum up here 'cause I'm running longer than I intended.
We seem to single out Christianity in this group, though it's probably a common association. If Pat Robertson says something dumb, it doesn't make the Satanic Church look bad. So we pick on the Christians either because we believe they deserve it, or else it's the Least Common Denominator, as such. We could argue about Yasser Arafat, I suppose, but I don't know enough Muslim history or faith to approach the subject in depth.
But in being aware of our singling out of Christianity, we must also take care not to excuse it exclusively. The best reason I know to perceive threat in Christianity is that its people so regularly exercise their liberty to attempt to counteract liberty itself.
But the perception of behavior in that context is entirely subjective.
thx,
Tiassa
------------------
"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited August 21, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited August 21, 1999).]
