Whence comes logic

river · Dec 18, 2018

Write4U said:
Logic is complete, reasoning becomes more logical depending on gathering knowledge.
Difference perspectives with common "logical" denominators

Logic , the esseence of logic , comes knowledge , bottom line

Write4U · Dec 18, 2018

river said:
Logic , the essence of logic , comes knowledge , bottom line

Logic is the root and essence of determinism, not the gathering of knowledge which is a human ability and discipline.

river · Dec 18, 2018

Write4U said:
Logic is the root and essence of determinism, not the gathering of knowledge which is a human ability and discipline.

Disagree

And both the root and determination are based on some particular knowledge .

Write4U · Dec 18, 2018

river said:
Disagree

And both the root and determination are based on some particular knowledge .

Only the inherent knowledge of relative values and functions woven into the fabric of spacetime, the quantum fields.

river · Dec 18, 2018

river said: ↑
Disagree

And both the root and determination are based on some particular knowledge .

Write4U said:
Only the inherent knowledge of relative values and functions woven into the fabric of spacetime, the quantum fields.

What is inherent about any of these ?

Jeeves · Dec 19, 2018

river said:
Disagree

Inotherwords , reasoning gathers in knowledge , logic does not .

Observation note-taking and memory gather in data, which become knowledge only after reasoning has processed them and logic has organized them into a retrievable pattern.

river · Dec 19, 2018

Jeeves said:
Observation note-taking and memory gather in data, which become knowledge only after reasoning has processed them and logic has organized them into a retrievable pattern.

Agreed

But knowledge changes all the time , hence reason does and logic does .

Jeeves · Dec 19, 2018

Speakpigeon said:
Since the 50's, machines, theorem provers, produce formal proofs for theorems, something mathematicians almost never do. So, perhaps, not exactly "mere frills".

Admirable in some ways, but not necessary. All frills, compared to figuring out how to open a walnut.

Jeeves · Dec 19, 2018

river said:
But knowledge changes all the time , hence reason does and logic does .

No. Whatever size and shape garment you sew, the needle and scissors don't change. New variants on the scissors and needle may be invented for the sewing-on of distinct specialized frills, but the principles of cutting and sewing don't change.

river · Dec 19, 2018

river said: ↑
But knowledge changes all the time , hence reason does and logic does .

Jeeves said:
No. Whatever size and shape garment you sew, the needle and scissors don't change. New variants on the scissors and needle may be invented for the sewing-on of distinct specialized frills, but the principles of cutting and sewing don't change.

What has this got to with the OP ?

DaveC426913 · Dec 19, 2018

river said:
What has this got to with the OP ?

You realize it's a metaphor, right?
It is as topical to the OP as your comment to which it replies.

river · Dec 19, 2018

DaveC426913 said:
You realize it's a metaphor, right?
It is a topical to the OP as your comment on logic is.

The metaphor is irrelevant

river said: ↑
But knowledge changes all the time , hence reason does and logic does .

Ah ...so knowledge , reason and logic is static then .

It is a topical to the OP as your comment on logic is.

DaveC426913 · Dec 19, 2018

river said:
The metaphor is irrelevant

You of all people are not really in a good position to just start labeling people's contributions as irrelevant. That'll backfire pretty badly.

river said:
Ah ...so knowledge , reason and logic is static then .

Did you just ... respond to yourself? Did you just say something from one side of your brain that the other side of your brain found enlightening?

How many of you are there in there?

river · Dec 19, 2018

DaveC426913 said:
You of all people are not really in a good position to just start labeling people's contributions as irrelevant. That'll backfire pretty badly.

So be it , I stand by my thinking .

Did you just ... respond to yourself? Did you just say something from one side of your brain that the other side of your brain found enlightening?

How many of you are there in there?

My understanding of things grows

My attitude towards understanding of this Universe grows , hence my knowledge , reason and logic grows .

Jeeves · Dec 19, 2018

river said:
What has this got to with the OP ?

It was a response to your claim that the if knowledge changes, reason and logic change.
No. They are the tools with which we process data. Sensory input enters the brain, is routed to the appropriate area, where it becomes information. Reason then classifies that information and compares it with previously stored information; logic, which is systematic reasoning, tests and evaluates the new information. If it's useful and fits into a pattern, it's stored in long-term memory as knowledge.
The analogy is to a piece of fabric coming into a tailor's workshop, being checked for flaws, evaluated for what kind of garment it will make, cut, fitted and sewn.
The tailor doesn't need a new kind of implement for each garment he produces, but he does sometimes need to modify his standard tools for a new kind of fabric.

Jeeves · Dec 19, 2018

Plus, I thought it was relevant as an extension of my previous comment on logical formulas, metaphors and frills.
I don't suppose river would know about that.

river · Dec 19, 2018

river said: ↑
What has this got to with the OP ?

Jeeves said:
It was a response to your claim that the if knowledge changes, reason and logic change.
No.

They are the tools with which we process data. Sensory input enters the brain, is routed to the appropriate area, where it becomes information. Reason then classifies that information and compares it with previously stored information; logic, which is systematic reasoning, tests and evaluates the new information. If it's useful and fits into a pattern, it's stored in long-term memory as knowledge.
The analogy is to a piece of fabric coming into a tailor's workshop, being checked for flaws, evaluated for what kind of garment it will make, cut, fitted and sewn.
The tailor doesn't need a new kind of implement for each garment he produces, but he does sometimes need to modify his standard tools for a new kind of fabric.

And all change

Regardless of sensory input , put to the Brain . Knowledge evolves and so does the sensory input to the Brain .

The periodic table , is based on logic

Jeeves · Dec 19, 2018

river said:
Knowledge evolves and so does the sensory input to the Brain .

You mean, heat feels different on the skin of someone who knows the periodic table than on that someone who doesn't? I didn't notice a difference.

Write4U · Dec 19, 2018

This may be of interest.
A perfectly patternless piano sonata. It's named "the beautiful math behind the world's ugliest music ever written", because it is written as a truly patternless tonal and rhythmical progression. It was composed by a mathematician and has no repeating themes of any kind (completely patternless), which normally provide emotional relief and satisfaction. It's really strange...it has no logical value at all!

https://www.ted.com/talks/scott_rickard_the_beautiful_math_behind_the_ugliest_music#t-663927

and in this "watch me play the audience":

In this fun, 3-min performance from the World Science Festival, musician Bobby McFerrin uses the pentatonic scale to reveal one surprising result of the way our brains are wired.

Watch logic in action and everyone gets it.
https://www.ted.com/talks/bobby_mcferrin_hacks_your_brain_with_music

Write4U · Dec 19, 2018

Speakpigeon said:
Since the 50's, machines, theorem provers, produce formal proofs for theorems, something mathematicians almost never do

Well, all the former use applied mathematics to present their proofs by means of mathematical language, no?

Higgs boson comes to mind.