What is needed to disprove an "accepted" theory?

Equally, though, it is up to Q-reeus to convince people that his ideas are correct. He won't change minds if he refuses to back up his claims with evidence or argument.
I appreciate James that you have attempted to provide a fair and balanced summary in this 2nd cull spin-off from "Simple geometric proof GR's GW's are impossible". Such culls unfortunately completely trashed my extensive use of post # referencing, a collateral damage consequence of that thread getting maliciously derailed.

However I reject that I have failed to back up my claims with evidence. The evidence is the specifics of the claim. As set out in #1 there:
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/simple-geometric-proof-grs-gws-are-impossible.157012/
, and in (currently, still), now p5, #94 there. A correction to #94 being that part "(small ellipses in illustration of #1 and #60)" has the last #60 wrong (it was even pre-cull).
I will just reproduce the direct link to illustration: https://s26.postimg.org/axee7pdmh/GR_GW_paradox_2.png
That, together with account in #1 or new #94 there is I maintain entirely sufficient to establish the 'provocative' claim as per thread title.
That two knowledgeable posters chose for whatever personal reasons to continually and imo maliciously misrepresent and denigrate was beyond my control. I tried to get the discussion focused on the actual argument, but to no avail.
If you or anyone else wants to start talking about the actual simple details of argument in #1 or #94 there, and the base argument is exceedingly simple, feel free to engage me one-to-one right now. There preferably, but here if you wish. The focus needs to be on the details I have laid out - not spurious side issues. An invitation open to any who have a clue but have so far held back.

Will not back away from the 'extravagant' title claim. There is no possible rational, objective counterargument. To Prove me wrong, anyone is welcome to try. But not with disingenuous, derailing nonsense.
 
If it was so obvious, you would have given the link or copy pasted....
You are claiming that magnetic aspects were taken care of, what stops you from establishing your claim ?
Because the many trolls and cranks on this forum tend to write off scientific papers, or any reputable article, disputing their preconceived views as "pop science"
The Hulse Taylor binary system, along with other reputable experimental results confirm GW type GW's BH's and as an extenstion, the near certainty aspect of GR.
 
Will not back away from the 'extravagant' title claim. There is no possible rational, objective counterargument. To Prove me wrong, anyone is welcome to try. But not with disingenuous, derailing nonsense.
:D And yet here you still remain.....And imho, will until it dies a natural death!
 
While it is unlikely that any "amateur" will invalidate GR or BHs or whatever, it is not impossible.
Agreed of course, problem being that they do not like being reminded of that remote chance...a non zero chance certainly, though closer to zero then one!
And don't believe everything you read in reputable mainstream sources, either!
We do all mostly know that science is never 100% correct and is always open for advancement and progress. Always keeping that in mind, I'm certainly more inclined to put my faith in reputable mainstream articles then anti GR claims by the likes of the god, expletive deleted, MR or Fat Freddy.

Claims are one thing. Evidence and argument in support is another.

Adamant claims that the "mainstream" must always be right fall into the same category as the other adamant claims you've mentioned.
I have never claimed that mainstream is always right, but I do claim they are far more right than trolls, cranks and anti science nuts that believe they can rewrite 21st century cosmology from any science forum.
Thread titles like "Proof that Gravitational waves don't exist" or "Einstein was wrong!" or whatever are deliberately provocative and mostly wrong. However, claims must be examined on their merits, not prejudged. Most of the time we find here that such extravagant claims are baseless. Some are harder to dismiss than others. Some might even be correct.
If they were correct, there proponents would be in line for the Nobel.
In actual fact though most are in the same class as Zarkov whom yourself often dismissed as crank.

And so what? If they are known for often being in error, that might make it less likely that (a) they are taken seriously and (b) they are correct this time. But it doesn't automatically mean that everything they post is wrong. You're known for your pro-GR stance. So does that mean that you are always right, or that GR is necessarily right? No. Ideas ultimately stand or fall on their own merits, not on the reputation of the person putting them forward. Plenty of people have been ridiculed at first and later shown to be right. And plenty of established "experts" have been shown to be wrong.
While that is partly true, it's also as I still and will always claim, that if individuals claim they can rewrite 21st century cosmology, they would not be here. Instead we have claims from unqualified in the main lay people, that try and push that bullshit and expect us/you/me to fall for it.
:) Sorry, I'll live or fall, on the general merits and claims of reputable experiments such as aLIGO, rather than the rantings of those that have an ego to feed, and get their nourishment from public forums. Not Impressed by them one iota.
Yes. You cannot validly conclude that any claim that GR is wrong is false, simply on the basis that the claim is posted on science forum, or posted by an "amateur". Ideas stand or fall on their merits, not by who posted them or where they were published.
Maybe you'll win the lottery tomorrow James.

If you've watched those discussions in my case, you will notice that I start with an open mind and closely question the claims being made. If it becomes apparent that there are flaws in the evidence, the arguments being made, the underlying assumptions, etc. then it is fair to conclude that the case being put is not very convincing. But not before.
In many circumstances I have made those flaws obvious. In just as many circumstances, as you well know, the trolls and cranks concerned do not want to entertain any answer that invalidates their preconception.
Other times, I may not be able to refute scientifically so I logically raise the undeniable concerns that get those trolls rather hot under the collar....claims re public science forums open to all and sundry, and then appropriate peer review if they truly believe they have anything of substance.
We have even had one professional expert already driven away due to the antics of one well known troll.
And in recent times two other reasonably knowledgable posters have decided to call it quits.
So much for welcoming trolls with open arms.
Will you not entertain ideas until they have gone through a complete process of peer review and been rubber stamped by some "authority"? That's a very high bar you're setting there.
I don't believe so. When those claims are claims that GR is wrong, and BH's do not exist, and GP-B and aLIGO are fraudulent, and that we need to question the long held belief that our Sun is not part of a unitary stellar system, then yes, the high bar standard is necessary. Just as you and others tell MR re extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence.
I am quite happy for Q-reeus, or anybody else, to attempt to make their case here, for starters. If they turn out to be wrong here, there's no need to submit it for peer review and the like.
Agreed, except for the fact that just because no one can or is prepared to question his arrogant claims, does not mean they cannot be questioned by more expert authorities.
Arrogance and misplaced self-confidence is never a good look. However, ideas ultimately stand or fall on their merits, as I keep saying.
The arrogance is initially in the titles. The merits of his ideas were put to bed by Schmelzer and PhysBang.
 
and that we need to question the long held belief that our Sun is not part of a unitary stellar system, then yes, the high bar standard is necessary.

Dishonest attempt !

The point was, what are the observations and evidences which confirm unitary system as against multi. Rpenner rightly pointed out the elimination process, that is so far we could not get any companion of our sun in the range neither any such corroborative evidences or observations were found, suggesting unitary system only. Well that is still not as strong as Earth not being flat ! Do you get it ?

Do not bomb it again and again....
 
Because the many trolls and cranks on this forum tend to write off scientific papers, or any reputable article, disputing their preconceived views as "pop science"
The Hulse Taylor binary system, along with other reputable experimental results confirm GW type GW's BH's and as an extenstion, the near certainty aspect of GR.


I fail to understand your so strong belief in GR / GW...Its obsession kind of, that too it is for sure that you do not know the abc of it.

Relax my boy, relax. What makes you think that people like me, qreeus, expletive deleted are not aware of the links, news, papers, articles etc associated with GWs ? Your answer about me is that GR success bugs me because I believe in God Creation stuff, thats bad and baseless. But what about qreeus and ED, why the success of GR should bug them ? Why would they try to find something against GR ? Why do you not take it up this way that either they have not understood the mainstream point or they have some serious stuff with them. You should counter, if you feel capable, scientifically. Do not make this statement again and again that GR is proved, confirmed...you are making no contribution at the best you are a stale link supplier.
 
Dishonest attempt !

The point was, what are the observations and evidences which confirm unitary system as against multi. Rpenner rightly pointed out the elimination process, that is so far we could not get any companion of our sun in the range neither any such corroborative evidences or observations were found, suggesting unitary system only. Well that is still not as strong as Earth not being flat ! Do you get it ?

Do not bomb it again and again....
No, quite a factual attempt at showing the nonsensical pseudoscience you will stoop to and as agreed by all in that thread....except for yourself of course! :) And those reminders of your stupid threads, which mostly have been moved to the fringes, will always be raised when circumstances require to show the level of the incompetent nature of your posts.
I fail to understand your so strong belief in GR / GW...Its obsession kind of, that too it is for sure that you do not know the abc of it.
Of course you don't understand. Most religious fundamentalists feel the same.
The simple fact remains that GW's which most certainly now have been confirmed, and as a result BH's and of course adding even more certainty to Einstein's GR....Our greatest and still overwhelmingly supported gravitational theory, not withstanding q-reeus's outrageous and still unsupported claims by scientific academia.
Relax my boy, relax.
Well you do have an advantage over me there, having had a week off yourself to relax. Otherwise your pretentious bravado as simarilly applied to Tiassa, is basically childish but par for the course.
What makes you think that people like me, qreeus, expletive deleted are not aware of the links, news, papers, articles etc associated with GWs ? Your answer about me is that GR success bugs me because I believe in God Creation stuff, thats bad and baseless. But what about qreeus and ED, why the success of GR should bug them ? Why would they try to find something against GR ? Why do you not take it up this way that either they have not understood the mainstream point or they have some serious stuff with them. You should counter, if you feel capable, scientifically. Do not make this statement again and again that GR is proved, confirmed...you are making no contribution at the best you are a stale link supplier.
Reputable links will always be supplied when required. :)
On the rest of your stuff, there are many reasons why some amateurs as you have listed, see the need to disagree with mainstream cosmology...[1] They really do not understand properly. [2] They have a religious agenda. [3] They suffer with "tall poppy syndrome". [4] The have over inflated egos to feed. [5]
They are past failures at the discipline themselves and must therefor drag down those that have made it. Take your pick.
The over riding point you keep forgetting is that GR is overwhelmingly supported and near certain having passed all tests so far thrown at it, including the most recent confirmation of GW's.
And the chances of you or any other aforementioned amateurs invalidating it, on a science forum no less, while being non zero, is so close to zero as not really concernable in the greater scheme of things.
 
paddoboy:

If you were of the opinion that you had invalidated GR and/or Einstein, would you be here? [you don't need to answer that. :rolleyes:
I might be here. I might like to run my idea past a few people who know their stuff, in case I had made an error somewhere.

In saying that, I now believe for expediency, you are under estimating the aLIGO results for whatever reason, but like I said, its your forum.
I don't know where you're getting that from. I have written repeatedly that the LIGO results are consistent with GR.

Are you saying the aLIGO results are not peer reviewed?
No. I'm asking whether Q-reeus's ideas and the other work he has referenced has been peer reviewed, to your knowledge.

We have trolls, we have cranks and religious god botherers, that try and install their god of the gaps whenever they see fit.
I have noticed you repeatedly accusing some people here of having a religious agenda, but I see no evidence of that, particularly in this topic. Where do you see the religion coming in, exactly? Or is that just trolling on your part?

I/m not the professional. There are many many papers supporting and listing all those contingencies. I suggest since you seem to believe that I'm giving the deniers of aLIGO results a hard time, you spend the time researching those many papers.
I have already said I don't intend to do that. I have neither the time nor the inclination to do so. Frankly, I'm not that interested in the topic under discussion here.

What I won't do, not having investigated the issues myself, is to make the assumption that Q-reeus must be wrong because he dares to question an orthodoxy. Instead, I take no position on the matter at this time.

I'm waiting for publication and pee review of his ideas if it ever gets that far.
And if it doesn't get that far that is, where does q-reeus's claims lie then James? :)
It lies as a possible hypothesis that has not gained wide acceptance among the scientific community, unless and until it is disproven. There are many such ideas.

So revealing E-Mail content from mods and admins is OK?
Why don't you go and read our published policy on that, which I explicitly referred you to previously?
 
paddoboy:

We do all mostly know that science is never 100% correct and is always open for advancement and progress. Always keeping that in mind, I'm certainly more inclined to put my faith in reputable mainstream articles then anti GR claims by the likes of the god, expletive deleted, MR or Fat Freddy.
Fair enough. But realise that arguments from those people are not refuted by your expressions of faith.

I have never claimed that mainstream is always right, but I do claim they are far more right than trolls, cranks and anti science nuts that believe they can rewrite 21st century cosmology from any science forum.

If they were correct, there proponents would be in line for the Nobel.
In actual fact though most are in the same class as Zarkov whom yourself often dismissed as crank.
Cranks are people who go on insisting they are right long after they have been shown to be wrong.

While that is partly true, it's also as I still and will always claim, that if individuals claim they can rewrite 21st century cosmology, they would not be here. Instead we have claims from unqualified in the main lay people, that try and push that bullshit and expect us/you/me to fall for it.
:) Sorry, I'll live or fall, on the general merits and claims of reputable experiments such as aLIGO, rather than the rantings of those that have an ego to feed, and get their nourishment from public forums. Not Impressed by them one iota.
Why are you here, then?

Why not just read science news sites and/or peer-reviewed papers or other sources that you consider reputable? Why come here and battle it out with people who you say you do not respect, who are unqualified and push bullshit?

I don't believe so. When those claims are claims that GR is wrong, and BH's do not exist, and GP-B and aLIGO are fraudulent, and that we need to question the long held belief that our Sun is not part of a unitary stellar system, then yes, the high bar standard is necessary. Just as you and others tell MR re extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence.
I don't disagree with you there.

Has anybody made claims of fraud regarding aLIGO here? I don't recall seeing any such claims. Have they provided any evidence for the claimed fraud?
 
paddoboy:
I might be here. I might like to run my idea past a few people who know their stuff, in case I had made an error somewhere.
:) Sure!
I don't know where you're getting that from. I have written repeatedly that the LIGO results are consistent with GR.
And that's what q-reeus is denying.
No. I'm asking whether Q-reeus's ideas and the other work he has referenced has been peer reviewed, to your knowledge.
I don't believe so...why not ask him? I'm sure he'll have a list of excuses as to why not.
I have noticed you repeatedly accusing some people here of having a religious agenda, but I see no evidence of that, particularly in this topic. Where do you see the religion coming in, exactly? Or is that just trolling on your part?
The god is certainly a religious troll and has admitted accepting a deity, although he denies it interferes with his science...or should I say anti science.
I have already said I don't intend to do that. I have neither the time nor the inclination to do so. Frankly, I'm not that interested in the topic under discussion here.
The papers are there anyway, posted by myself and rpenner. Probably near 20?
What I won't do, not having investigated the issues myself, is to make the assumption that Q-reeus must be wrong because he dares to question an orthodoxy. Instead, I take no position on the matter at this time.
He dares to question an orthodoxy on a science forum, within the science section instead of alternative theeeories..why is that. Such behaviour would see him banned elsewhere.
It lies as a possible hypothesis that has not gained wide acceptance among the scientific community, unless and until it is disproven. There are many such ideas.
And possibly in the need to feed his ego [just see the last post in his anti GR thread] is why he ignores the hard road and instead does it here where obviously capabilities to invalidate his claims are limited.
Why don't you go and read our published policy on that, which I explicitly referred you to previously?
No that's OK, I'm not that interested...whether as two trolls claim that you PM them and mentioned re my trolling tactics, is of no great concern, if that's the standards you chose to adhere to.
 
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paddoboy:
Fair enough. But realise that arguments from those people are not refuted by your expressions of faith.
They are certainly refuted by scientific evidence, and/or the lack of it for their own nonsensical fairy tale take on science.
Cranks are people who go on insisting they are right long after they have been shown to be wrong.
Yes, that fits both the god and expletive deleted quite admirably.
Why are you here, then?
Why not just read science news sites and/or peer-reviewed papers or other sources that you consider reputable? Why come here and battle it out with people who you say you do not respect, who are unqualified and push bullshit?
The same reason why most are here, and the same reason why we have very limited debate in the cosmological sciences when one or either of the aforementioned people start their nonsense.
Check it out yourself.....most give up early or just don't bother replying. I'm a stubborn bastard though.
I don't disagree with you there.
A shame then that you can't be more forthright then when those issues arise.
Has anybody made claims of fraud regarding aLIGO here? I don't recall seeing any such claims. Have they provided any evidence for the claimed fraud?
Certainly, ask rpenner who has been awfully quiet of late.
In fact the god on maybe three or four and possibly more occasions has said that both GP-B and aLIGO are fraudulent experiments, or words to that effect.
I'm rather surprised how you sometimes miss certain issues, or claim no knowledeg of.
And as usual with most anti GR claims...not a sceric of evidence, but plenty of bluster.
 
He dares to question an orthodoxy on a science forum, within the science section instead of alternative theeeories..why is that. Such behaviour would see him banned elsewhere.


Pl tell what all to be posted or discussed in science section.....I like what plazma is posting but how do we discuss what he is posting ?


and the same reason why we have very limited debate in the cosmological sciences when one or either of the aforementioned people start their nonsense.
Check it out yourself.....most give up early or just don't bother replying. I'm a stubborn bastard though.


In my opinion, this time very very humble opinion, a small objectivity and rational approach by you will ensure smooth debate. Mind it, a troll cannot be derailed by further trolling, so if you feel someone is trolling then you do not feed further.
 
paddoboy:

I have picked up on your inability to recognize subtle distinctions; and I feel that inability has led to your misunderstandings and biases which make you so repetitive when people try to inform you of the subtleties involved in what they are trying to convey to you.

For example, James R tried to convey to you that while the aLIGO claims were consistent with GR GWs claims, he also tried to convey that said claims may be consistent with some other theory, and hence that until those claims can be confirmed by exhaustive scrutiny and then exclusively attributed to GR and other theories definitively ruled out as predicting said GWs and claims, then your faith based claims that aLIGO confirmed GR in exclusion of all other alternative theories is just that, unscientific personal faith based claims.

For another example of subtleties which you can't seem to get, and which therefore makes you so adamant about peer review or some other orthodoxy imprimatur before discussing on a science site, is that this site's whole purpose is to discuss ideas and issues that are not yet fully settled by mainstream science.

If you want a science news aggregation site, then go to one. If you want an orthodoxy only parroting blog, then go to one. But, paddoboy, this site is for discussing and teasing out issues and aspects which mainstream may have missed or unduly hastily dismissed previously!

These attitudinal anomalies on a science discussion site manifest an obsession with sticking to orthodoxy in all matters even when legitimate science scrutiny is being applied to said orthodoxy. That subjective faith based attitude goes absolutely against the spirit of the scientific method principles and practice. Furthermore, your argument that one cannot properly discuss dissenting views in the science discussion section is totally your own 'rule' and not that of the site.

For example, what would have been the proper section of this forum for discussing the dissenting views when the BICEP2 papers and claims were initially published?

If we were to apply your unreasonable 'rule', all such dissenting scrutiny discussion OPs would have been relegated to the pseudoscience section, even if the dissenting views were based on known science which brought into question the BICEP2 claims!

However, since those bicep2 claims and papers emanated from an orthodoxy team and source, your uncritical and uncomprehending faith in orthodoxy claims and sources would have blindly accepted it all as 'true and correct', and you would have posted their paper and claims in the science section! Yet your 'rule' would have apriori banished all legitimate discussion against them to the pseudoscience section, even though counter arguments were based on known science issues which brought bicep2 claims into question!

Can you see where your lack of subtle understanding and faith based approach to science and science discussion leads you to make inconsistent and unscientific demands and assertions which only demean the discussion and your own ability to be objective and reasonable?

Sure, the easily spotted cranks and pseudoscience is properly dealt with summarily (thankyou moderators!).

But one has to be careful that faith and zeal and lack of subtle comprehension does not lead you (or anyone else) into the sort of adamant claims and accusations which only demonstrate a bias and inability to discuss subtly and fairly the ideas and issues at the "cutting edge" of the current science discoveries, reviews, scrutiny and discourse.

So paddoboy, I would like to offer a humble friendly suggestion:

Tone down the faith based intolerance of dissenting views which you might not comprehend the subtleties of nor have any real understanding if they come from known science or new perspectives or not. Treat each new idea or dissenting view on its merits; minimize the personal characterization and attacks based on irrelevancies which science is not interested in and the scientific method expressly excludes from consideration; and if you have no cogent relevant argument to offer other than what is already known from orthodoxy, don't "bomb" discussions with repetitive links and arguments from the very authorities which are under scrutiny in discussions; if you have nothing which may advance the discussion, keep your personal opinions of posters and of your faith based beliefs in mainstream teams and sources to yourself, and just let the participants and moderators advance the proper and uninterrupted flow of discussion to its logical and scientific conclusion according to the posted evidence and arguments on topic and on science.

Please do not take offense at my candor or suggestion, paddoboy, as it is intended kindly and tolerantly despite your past attacks and attempts to unfairly influence me even from my first day here.

I depend on your own reason and fairness to out and shine very soon; to hopefully help improve your ability to recognize and assimilate subtleties in ideas and arguments; after which you may possibly see that some of the problems here may be of your own making (stranger things have been known to happen here and elsewhere) and not everyone has it in for you if you allow them the same latitude when it comes to discussing new ideas and dissenting scientific arguments.

Best, expletives deleted.
 
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David Blair:
Australian International Gravitational Research Centre (AIGRC)
The University of Western Australia (M013)
35 Stirling Highway
CRAWLEY WA 6009
Australia

david.blair@uwa.edu.au


Dear paddoboy, the trouble with trying to refute such claims is that the proponents always then say that it is a conspiracy to keep their views from being heard. I have learnt over the years that it is best to ignore these people unless they are able to put something sufficiently coherent together that it gets refereed and published. You can’t prove ideas such as these by words alone.

I get something like this at least one time per week! There is a very nasty person called Crothers who pesters the GW community incessantly.

Sorry I can’t shed any more light on it,

Best regards

David
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Most already realise this anyway.
[highlight by me]
 
Please do not take offense at my candor or suggestion, paddoboy,.
Why would I take offence at anything any amateur posted on any science forum, particularly one with so many pretentious lengthy rants such as your own posts?:rolleyes:
If you prefer to take notice of the crank nonsense as posted by the god, and most of it subsequently shifted to at least three regions in the fringes, then you have a problem.
Live with it.
 
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Pl tell what all to be posted or discussed in science section.....I like what plazma is posting but how do we discuss what he is posting ?
Science is interesting and awe inspiring.
Why do we need to discuss facts like the Sun is certainly without question, part of a unitary stellar system.
If you are not interested in science, rather just interested in attempting to find gaps and the installation of the god of the gaps, as rpenner suggested to you a while back, why do you come here?

In my opinion, this time very very humble opinion, a small objectivity and rational approach by you will ensure smooth debate. Mind it, a troll cannot be derailed by further trolling, so if you feel someone is trolling then you do not feed further.
I don't agree. Any troll as you have shown, needs continued refutation of his/her ideas and fairy tales.
 
paddoboy:

Why would I take offence at anything any amateur posted on any science forum, particularly one with so many pretentious lengthy rants such as your own posts?:rolleyes:
If you prefer to take notice of the crank nonsense as posted by the god, and most of it subsequently shifted to at least three regions in the fringes, then you have a problem.
Live with it.


Kneejerking without acknowledging the points made for your benefit is also a problem. Please add kneejerking as another cause adding to the list of problems which may be of your own making, paddoboy.

I take notice of posts which discuss scientific issues and ideas, irrespective of the person. That is what the scientific method requires of all objective participants in science discussion and assessment. So that is not a "problem" for me although it seems to be a "problem" for you in your present kneejerking and unsubtle state of mind, paddoboy. See the subtle point made there?

Take some time out to reflect on all that James R, others, and I, have tried to convey to you that may be too subtle for your present state of mind to recognize and digest properly. Best.
 
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Take some time out to reflect on all that James R, others, and I, have tried to convey to you that may be too subtle for your present state of mind to recognize and digest properly. Best.
I have...Perhaps more to the point is that you need to take the time to reflect on your own silly pretentious nonsense as detailed in your lengthy bandwidth wasting posts.
One of those reflective points for me is to ignore more of the crank and trollish nonsense conducted by some.
You can take that as now ignoring you unless you have any relevant points you believe refutes any accepted mainstream cosmology, with an expectation of course of accepting answers given [as was many times in the redshift debacle conducted by yourself] instead of approaching with your obvious preconceived agenda, as was shown in that thread.
 
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