What is mass? Force?



Human001,
Please do not confuse mass with his property.

Mass


In physics, mass (from Ancient Greek: μᾶζα) commonly refers to any of three properties of matter, which have been shown experimentally to be equivalent: Inertial mass, active gravitational mass and passive gravitational mass. In everyday usage, Mass is often taken to mean weight, but in scientific use, they refer to different properties.
The inertial mass of an object determines its acceleration in the presence of an applied force. According to Newton's second law of motion, if a body of mass m is subjected to a force F, its acceleration a is given by F/m.
A body's mass also determines the degree to which it generates or is affected by a gravitational field. If a first body of mass m1 is placed at a distance r from a second body of mass m2, each body experiences an attractive force F whose magnitude is
06bf842713ed3afcf14dee6e26297276.png

where G is the universal constant of gravitation, equal to 6.67×10−11 kg−1 m3 s−2. This is sometimes referred to as gravitational mass (when a distinction is necessary, M is used to denote the active gravitational mass and m the passive gravitational mass). Repeated experiments since the 17th century have demonstrated that inertial and gravitational mass are equivalent; this is entailed in the equivalence principle of general relativity.
Special relativity provides a relationship between the mass of a body and its energy (E = mc2). Mass is a conserved quantity. From the viewpoint of any single observer, mass can neither be created or destroyed, and special relativity does not change this understanding. However, relativity adds the fact that all types of energy have an associated mass, and this mass is added to systems when energy is added, and the associated mass is subtracted from systems when the energy leaves. In nuclear reactions, for example, the system does not become less massive until the energy liberated by the reaction is allowed to leave whereby the "missing mass" is carried off with the energy, which itself has mass.
On the surface of the Earth, the weight W of an object is related to its mass m by


W=mg
where g is the acceleration due to the Earth's gravity, equal to about 9.81 m s−2. An object's weight depends on its environment, while its mass does not: an object with a mass of 50 kilograms weighs 491 newtons on the surface of the Earth; on the surface of the Moon, the same object still has a mass of 50 kilograms but weighs only 81.5 newtons.
From Wikipedia Mass


 
And what is a balance scale? And what is an ideal balance scale? Something that measures mass? I think you have a circular problem here, as you pointed out to James R.
Not at all. A balance scale measures something. What that something is is to some extent irrelevant. In short, mass exists. The ancients didn't have a very good idea of what mass was, and yet they found the concept quite useful. What really matters is whether that something that balance scales measure is a useful quantity and whether those measurements are very repeatable.

What is happening here is that you are conflating axiomatic with tautological, something Alpha told you about way back in post #5,
No, its not tautological, what you're referring to is the fact that certain things are axiomatic, in that you have to start somewhere with definitions and then you build things in terms of those definitions.


Human001, while physicists now do have a better picture of what mass is, that does mean they have explained it in full. Physics, like any other science still has axiomatic items. While the axioms of today's physics are deeper than those of their predecessors, they are still axiomatic.
 
Mass is simply an objects Volume multiplied by its Density. Volume is how much three-dimensional space a substance (solid, liquid, gas or plasma) or shape occupies or contains. This is purely a measurement of space and tells us that we can not have mass without space. Density is defined as a materials mass per unit Volume. The ratio of these two measurements define how hard or soft any substance is. In my line of work we refer to this as an objects hardness. Hardness is the measure of how resistant solid matter is to various kinds of permanent shape change when a force is applied. There's an old saying in my industry: "Your cutting tool must always be harder than the material you want to cut." This is because a highly dense material can withstand a greater amount of force than a softer material. In this description, the density of an object is more important than its mass when factoring in force.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardness
Personally, I do not think of mass as a singular quantity. Mass is the concentration of particles confined inside a specific amount of space. To me the question becomes, what are particles? This is something the Higgs mechanism does not address, but quantum mechanics tries to. Take electrons for example. They have mass but no true volume because they are point particles. The quantum mechanical description of their volume is called the Compton Wavelength which is equivalent to the wavelength of a photon (a massless particle) whose energy is the same as the rest-mass energy of the particle and experimentally varified through a process known as Compton scattering. This doesn't tell us what a point particle is. It just says, all of the mass of an electron will be found at a single point somewhere within a given volume. Does this mean that point particles are the hardest substances in the universe?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compton_wavelength
 
thread closed.

This disintegrated into nonsense immediately after I asked it not to.
 
Thread re-opened as per request.

I have purged the trolling posts, and will issue the following warning, mostly directed at moose and Terry G:

Further trolling will result in a ban.

Thank you.
 
Mass is simply an objects Volume multiplied by its Density.
How does that help answer the question of "what is mass?" It begs the question of what are density and volume. That isn't helping. To describe mass in terms of density you have brought several additional variables into play: Pressure, temperature, volume, density, and chemical makeup (which has yet to be discussed). Iron at the surface of the Earth has a density of 7.87 grams/cc. At the Earth's core the density rises to about 12.6 grams/cc. Air at the surface of the Earth has a density of about 0.00128 grams/cc. Up in space, it's just about 0.

Personally, I do not think of mass as a singular quantity. Mass is the concentration of particles confined inside a specific amount of space. To me the question becomes, what are particles? This is something the Higgs mechanism does not address, but quantum mechanics tries to. Take electrons for example.
First off, the Higgs mechanism most certainly does address the concept of particles. Secondly, the Higgs mechanism is in the realm of quantum mechanics. Thirdly, talking about electrons does not help much in understanding the concept of mass. Almost all (more than 99.94%) of an atom's mass is attributable to the nucleus.


On a freshman chemistry level, the concept of mass does indeed start to make a sense. Chemists and physicists use the atomic mass unit to describe mass at the molecular and atomic scale. The atomic mass of an isolated carbon 12 atom in its electronic ground state is exactly 12 by definition. The atomic mass of a hydrogen molecule (ignoring deuterium) is about 2, 1/6 that of a carbon 12 atom. That makes sense because a hydrogen molecule comprises two atoms of hydrogen, each with an atomic mass number of 1 while a carbon 12 has six protons and six neutrons. However, poke just a bit deeper and the concept of mass once again gets a bit murky. Here are four reasons why the concept of mass gets a bit murky when one pokes deeper.

Reason #1: Mass is not additive. The sum of the masses of a proton and an electron is slightly larger than the mass of a hydrogen 1 atom. Doubling the mass of a hydrogen 1 atom yields a value very slightly larger than the mass of a hydrogen molecule. It takes energy to split a hydrogen molecule into two hydrogen atoms and yet more energy to strip an electron from a hydrogen atom. Welcome to the world of mass defect and the world of E=mc[sup]2[/sup]. While the mass defect is very small for atoms and molecules and can pretty much be ignored, that is not the case for nuclei.

Reason #2: Mass is not additive. The atomic masses of a proton and a neutron are 1.0072765 and 1.0086649. So why does carbon 12 have an atomic mass of 12 instead of 12.0956? Why does iron 56 have an atomic mass of 55.9349 instead of 56.4491 (26 protons + 30 neutrons)? The answer once again lies in mass defect, which is a much more pronounced effect at the nuclear level.

Reason #3: Mass is not additive. Physicists use yet another scheme, the electron volt, to represent mass at the subatomic level. One atomic mass unit is 931.494 MeV/c[sup]2[/sup] in this scheme, making the rest mass of a proton 938.272 MeV/c[sup]2[/sup]. A proton comprises two up and one down quark. Add the rest masses of those quarks and you get about 11 MeV/c[sup]2[/sup]. That is just the opposite of what was seen at the atomic and nuclear levels, where the mass of the whole is less than the sum of the parts. Here the mass of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, and by a huge amount? So where does that extra 927 MeV/c[sup]2[/sup] come from? The answer lies in relativity, which leads to the final reason:

Reason #4: Mass is not additive. The intrinsic mass of a pair of protons approaching one another at relativistic speeds is considerably larger than twice the rest mass of a single proton. The rest mass of a photon is zero. Pump a bunch of photons into a closed, perfectly reflective container and you will get a non-zero intrinsic mass for the contents of the container.
 
What a great post. Sorry I can't quote it all.
Originally Posted by DH
How does that help answer the question of "what is mass?" It begs the question of what are density and volume. That isn't helping.
If I, or anyone else for that matter, could answer that question then we wouldn't need to have this discussion. The majority of answers so far have used the Newtonian description of force to define mass. If we don't know what mass or force is then why is a definition like "mass is a measure of a body's resistance to acceleration" acceptable? That's like saying the definition of the word "gullible" is "being gullible". I simply gave a different definition that hadn't been brought up. One that uses an objects density instead of mass to discribe its resistance to force. Do you disagree with this difinition, M=Vol*Den? Don't get me wrong, I completely understand what you're saying. If I define volume as being a measurement of space then you can ask, what is space? If I define density as being a concentration of various point particles masses within a given space then you can reiterate the fact that particle masses are not additive and so on.
First off, the Higgs mechanism most certainly does address the concept of particles.
I shouldn't even be commenting on this but I thougth the Higgs mechanism addressed the concept of how particles acquired their mass. I had no idea it explained such things as spin or charge.
Secondly, the Higgs mechanism is in the realm of quantum mechanics.
So is teleportation but that, like the Higgs, only addresses a few attributes of particle behavior
Thirdly, talking about electrons does not help much in understanding the concept of mass.
I used the electron as an example of how something can have mass without a true volume. It's only through quantum mechanics that a point particle can have a theoretical volume. As you yourself stated; "the concept of mass gets a bit murky when one pokes deeper."
 
Last edited:
I shouldn't even be commenting on this but I thougth the Higgs mechanism addressed the concept of how particles acquired their mass. I had no idea it explained such things as spin or charge.
First off, I shouldn't be commenting on it either; my physics degree is (a) written in dinosaur blood and (b) is only a BS (I've gone beyond that, but not in physics). Secondly, don't put words in my mouth. Thirdly, going against the first point full bore ...

The Higgs mechanism does more than 'just' give particles mass. It is an integral part of the electroweak symmetry breaking. It also does a lot less than the mass of particles. The strong force, after all, explains most of the mass of the proton.
 
Well, here's my take on it, starting from the ground up as a humble English peasant living in medieval ages and paying taxes in gold to the local Baron:

I have a simple balance scale consisting of a lever hanging by a rope attached at the middle (the "fulcrum point") to some support structure which holds it up. I attach light straw buckets to each end of the rod (both buckets being roughly equal in size, shape and material) and place some items in each bucket (perhaps apples in one bucket, eggs in the other). I add enough items to each until there's a balance, and note that both buckets have the same qualitative weight when I try to lift them by hand, indicating there's some sort of relationship between this balance and what I feel when I try to lift each load.

Now I start to play around a bit. I start with two balanced buckets (one with apples, one with eggs), swap their places on the balance rod, and notice that they still remain balanced. At this point, I decide there must be something equivalent about the contents of the two buckets, and I choose to call this mysterious equivalent property "mass". For instance, I can show that if a basket of apples balances with a basket of eggs, and that same basket of eggs balances with a basket of oranges, then the baskets of apples and oranges will also balance when I put them on my crude scale. I can get even fancier and show that if I have four buckets A, B, C and D, for instance, and the contents of A balance the contents of C while the contents of B balance with the contents of D, then combining the contents of A and B on one side, C and D on the other side, still leads to a net balance, suggesting the masses on both sides simply add.

We have a couple of final steps before we can conclusively establish that there's some internal property of matter (mass) which is leading to this gravitational balance. If I have two balanced buckets equal distances from the fulcrum on which my scale hangs, and move one of the buckets further away, I notice the balance will start leaning in the direction of the bucket I moved further away, just like what happens on a seesaw. I get the same lean in the opposite direction if I do the same thing to the other bucket instead, and finally if I move both buckets an equal distance, the net balance remains unchanged. So at this point I'm a little confused- I thought I had a nice scheme for defining the mass of something based on what it balanced with, now I see that balance also depends on the distances of the buckets from the fulcrum. Hmmm... Well, for starters, I note that if I have two buckets which balance at equal distances, then the direction and rate of leaning depend only on whether I shift around one bucket or the other and by how much, and it does not depend on the particular contents of these buckets. Maybe then I can still argue that these buckets contain equal masses, and the leaning of the balance has something to do with not having the buckets equally spaced from the fulcrum.

So I decide to go back to my original scheme as a starting point, and weigh out three baskets of apples so they all balance in pairs when placed at equal distances from the fulcrum, i.e. according to my original scheme they all have equal mass. I place two buckets of apples at one end, and one bucket at the other. Naturally, the balance immediately starts to lean towards the side with more apples, but then I do something clever: I notice that if I double the distance of the lighter load from the fulcrum, I've once again achieved a balance! Same thing if I have three buckets of apples on one side and one bucket on the other, each bucket having been measured in advance to be equal in mass- now if I triple the distance instead of doubling it, I've once again restored a balance. So at long last, I can explain all the results of these tests with two simple assertions:

  1. All objects have an intrinsic quantity called "mass". The mass of two objects combined is the sum of their individual masses.
  2. If I have masses m[sub]1[/sub] and m[sub]2[/sub] placed distances L[sub]1[/sub] and L[sub]2[/sub] from the fulcrum, respectively, then these masses balance when m[sub]1[/sub]L[sub]1[/sub]=m[sub]2[/sub]L[sub]2[/sub]

The second principle was originally discovered by Archimedes (some call it the "principle of torsion balance"). He more or less worked along the line of reasoning I presented above, but English peasants tended to be rather ignorant of ancient Greek advances, so we can be a little forgiving here. And finally, once I've played around a bit, have thoroughly tested and established my notions of mass and torsion balance, I come to the realization that my buckets themselves have a bit of mass, and I should have accounted for that in the first place when setting up my measurements, but it didn't matter at the time because the buckets were light compared to their contents, and each bucket tends to weigh a similar amount in the first place, further hiding this fact. This is an easy correction to make, and all the tests and experiments can be redone now with ease while taking this into account.

Then along comes a guy like Newton or Galileo, and starts hooking weights up to pulleys and having those pulleys drag smooth, flat blocks of stone across horizontal tables. If the tables and stones are smooth enough, you can note that the acceleration of these stones is proportional to the weight you attach to your pulley (we can define this weight as "gravitational force"), and inversely proportional to the mass of the stone itself. Thus, you can define a system of units, define what a force is and what it means for two forces to be "equal" or what it means for one force to be some multiple of another, and thus establish a law such as F=ma, which then allows you to extend your concepts to things like pendulums, springs and planetary orbits.

Note: as a non-historical alternative, you could so a similar set of tests with springs as a starting point, establish concepts of force and mass, and then show it applies equally well to problems involving weights and gravity. Historically, the idea of mass was first defined in terms of how much it weighs when you lift it, and all they had to do was pick some object to label as a kilogram or a pound or what have you, against which everything else would then be compared.
 
Last edited:

Mass has several properties, described above and shown by me using quotes from Wikipedia.However I would not confuse mass with its properties .
In my opinion mass give information about quantity of Matter.
Matter is a general term for the substance of which all physical objects are made.[1][2] Typically, matter includes atoms and other particles which have mass. A common way of defining matter is as anything that has mass and occupies volume.[3] In practice however there is no single correct scientific meaning of "matter," as different fields use the term in different and sometimes incompatible ways.
.......................................................................................................................................................................From Wikipedia


Matter can be solid, liquid or gas.
The matter as a gas has mass also.
We can hardly measure weight with a balance scale or to measure the inertia.
Similar problems also with liquids.



 
I dusted off an old spreedsheet I once used quite extensively. It's called 'The Fundamental Physical Constants of the Universe' and it shows seven relationships that are, in essence, equal to mass (in SI units ... 1Kg=X). Of the seven only one can be used to calibrate mass via another unit of measurement. Even that one relationship is flawed because any measurable physical sample changes over time do to particle decay. They are:
1) 6.02214179x10+26 atomic mass units. This should not be confused with the molar mass of carbon-12 (1.0x10-3 Kg mol^-1) which had already been mentioned.
2) 5.60958912x10+35 electron Volts. This has the same numerical value as the speed of light squared divided by (postive) elementary charge (c^2/e). This relationship is well beyond our photon observational threshold.
3) 2.06148616x10+34 hartrees. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartree One hartree holds the same value as the atomic unit of energy.
4) 1.356392733x10+50 hertz. This is the same numerical value as the speed of light squared divided by (positive) elementary charge divided by Plancks constant in electron Volts (c^2/e*h). This relationship is well beyond our photon observational threshold.
5) 4.52443915x10+41 inverse-meters. This is 3.467834433x10+15 times larger than the radius of oir Hubble volume at a universal age of 13.8Gy. The inverse value of this relationship is related to an electron's mass at rest.
6) 8.987551787...x10+16 joules. Also known as c^2.
7) 6.509651x10+39 kelvin. For comparison, the temperature of the sun's core is between 100,000,00-150,000,000 K. This relationship is 1.0x10+33 times greater than that.
http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Constants/Table/allascii.txt
.
This post was meant to show the difficulty in calibrating what we know as mass. All natural units have multiple natural relationships with other natural units.
.
.
NOTE: Having the same numerical value is not necessarily equal to being the same physical quantity.
 
Last edited:
Our high school chemistry textbook began with a lovely history of how the 7 basic SI units got agreed upon. Maybe you have a similar book lying around. Anyway there's an online explanation on (I'm a newbie not allowed to post links)

sizes DOT com SLASH units SLASH kilogram DOT htm :

An Excerpt:
" The unit of mass in SI, equal to the mass of the International Prototype Kilogram, a platinum-iridium cylinder kept by the BIPM at Sèvres, France. The present definition dates from the 1901 3rd CGPM, though the Prototype was made in the 1880's. About 2.2046 pounds avoirdupois. Symbol, kg.

The kilogram is one of SI's seven base units. It is unique in being the only SI unit still defined by a physical prototype, and the only one that incorporates one of the decimal multiplier prefixes in its name. To be completely consistent, the gram should have been the unit of mass.
.....
The kilogram originated in the reforms of the French Revolution. Conceptually, it was to be the mass of a cubic decimeter of water at water's maximum density. It was originally called a grave, but the name was changed to kilogram in 1795. In the same year Lefèfre-Gineau was given the job of determining just how massive a cubic decimeter of water was. In the meantime, a provisional kilogram was made which was expected to be close enough to the final value for commercial purposes.

The method that Lefèfre-Gineau chose depends on the principle that the difference between the weight of an object in air and its weight immersed in water is the weight of the water it displaces. He made a hollow brass cylinder, just heavy enough to sink in water, whose dimensions were measured repeatedly. After corrections were made for changes in size due to thermal expansion, the cylinder's volume was calculated to be 11.28 cubic decimeters at 0°C. To weigh the cylinder, special weights were made of brass of the same density as the brass of the cylinder, to compensate for the buoyancy in air of the weights. "
 
Ben the man: If you prefer that I do not participate here then please say so. It was your reasonable sounding introduction to giving new ideas a chance that prompted me to join your forums. The first message I posted here was promptly moved to psuedo science. I have no interest in wasting your time or mine. Here is my second attempt to participate in your forums:

It appears to me that there has not been an answer as to what is mass? Although, I must allow for the correctness of the answer that mass is resistance to force. The question remains as to why objects resist force? In other words: What is mass?

James Putnam
 
The question remains as to why objects resist force? In other words: What is mass?

James Putnam

Because objects move through the universally present Higgs field, which resists the change of state (speeding up or slowing down) of material objects. It is this interaction with the Higgs boson which produces the reaction to forces which manifests itself in what we call mass.
 
AlexG,

I see. So I missed the announcement that the Higg's boson has been verified for the first or even second time.

James
 
Have you got any links for that Higgs Boson? or is it just a myth?


It's theoretical, which is not the same as a "myth." If there is no Higgs boson, then the Standard Model of quantum physics is wrong. That could be the case--and it almost certainly must be at least "incomplete--but the model has been so remarkably successful over the past 60-70 years, that I know I wouldn't bet much money against this one positive prediction it does make.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson
 
AlexG,

I see. So I missed the announcement that the Higg's boson has been verified for the first or even second time.

James

Hasn't yet. But it should be within the energy range of the LHC when it's at full power.
 
AlexG,

I understand that. The point is that mass has not been explained in and of itself. I think that there will be no Higg's boson. My view is that mass needed to be thoroughly evaluated right from the beginning of f=ma. That equation is based upon empirical evidence, and it was only when theoretical physicists arbitrarily decided that mass should be an indefinable property requiring indefinable units of measurement that it became inexplicable.

Ben-the-man, you can put a stop to my participation in this discussion anytime you choose to declare censorship rights. There is no need to tolerate my stating an opposing position should you deem it to be psuedo-science. My position is that: No one can answer the question of: What is mass?

James
 
In general my point is how are the "measurable" quantities not arbitrary?
But everyone knows they are, including you. You can trace the date when they were arbitrarily chosen and accorded general consensus.


It's circular and tautological. It's like a dictionary. Reaidng a dictionary, technically, you are getting no knew information, since the definition of anyword is bound up in the definitions of a dozen other words,

You can't discount that base knowledge accumulates - and this cumulative base knowledge interacts with the initially circular act of reading a dictionary. In addition, you would naturally try to arrange this base knowledge systematically. So you will have your personal system of knowledge, interacting with the dictionary.

At what point you will stop reading the dictionary depends on how much base knowledge you've accumulated, and possibly, at how good you are at creating a system out of your accumulated knowledge.

If you were right about your dictionary example, you wouldn't be able to complete a sentence.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top