What comes to mind?

[Balerion]

The hidden benefit of claiming that mental illness is real and all physical, is that this way, there exists a neat separation between the "normal" and the "mentally ill," and the "normal" ones get to feel good about themselves this way.

Taking this fearmongering nonsense to a different thread now that it was thoroughly debunked in the other thread?

Typical.

 

[wynn]

The actual benefit of accepting and recognising that mental illness "is real and all physical" is to ensure research continues and help and medication is developed to help them live and cope with their illness. Unless of course you're the type of arsehole who prefers to ignore it and ignore people's suffering, because it makes you feel better about yourself..?

Way to miss the point.

:shrug:

 

[ccdan]

There can't be a precise definition at present

Then we're not talking about science. Period.

Yes it does, mental illness is just a label for similar observations.
[...]
Mental illnesses are scientific models of states of mind. They have similarities across populations in terms of manifestation and success of appropriate medications. That is all that is required for a working hypothesis.

Now it's clear that you don't have a clue what science is. Your logic is also severely flawed. Using your logic we could take any kind of common behaviors or emotions and then suppress them with drugs, and then we could claim that they were mental illnesses because the drugs worked in suppressing them.

You may choose to believe that there can be a society that isn't based on knowing what is real, but that doesn't correspond to any society yet devised by man.

That's a completely nonsensical statement. From early history, all societies were built on purely imaginary beliefs and religion is still extremely pervasive today.

By the way, I do consider most religious people to have a form of mental illness.

Most psychiatrists don't and religious beliefs are explicitly excluded from psychiatric diagnoses - although no one ca explain why. Probably because about 90% of the population would be considered mentally ill - which is kinda far fetched - but this, again, proves that psychiatry deals with non-scientific, completely subjective and widely varying concepts.

 

[ccdan]

pseudoscientific crapola. It's really embarrassing that in the 21st century such a-holes are still around.

You were talking about psychiatry, right?

It is indeed extremely embarrassing that most people still believe that psychiatry is legitimate and scientific.

If I had the necessary power, I'd introduce mandatory re-education and all people would be forced to learn what science is and how science works. So we'd have fewer idiots who'd believe not only in psychiatry, but also astrology, homeopathy, out of body experiences, religion, witchcraft, and so on... and I'd also severely punish the improper use of the word "science"

Right, it's just like the anti-vaccine people. It's a kind of conspiracy theory.

This is a completely dumb analogy. Not only dumb, but probably the dumbest.

Viruses are real, we can detect them in a purely scientific and objective manner. They're effects can also be detected. Vaccines are also real and do work and we know how they work and prevent virus infection - everything is real and verifiable by anyone.

Mental "illnesses" are the complete opposite of viruses and vaccines. Everything is relative, subjective, non-detectable in a scientific manner, non measurable/quantifiable, everything is made up by humans all depends on human opinion.

The actual benefit of accepting and recognising that mental illness "is real and all physical" is to ensure research continues and help and medication is developed to help them live and cope with their illness. Unless of course you're the type of arsehole who prefers to ignore it and ignore people's suffering, because it makes you feel better about yourself..?

The actual benefit of accepting and recognizing that witchcraft "is real and all physical" is to ensure that occult and religious research continues and counter-curses and exorcism procedures are developed to help people live and manage or get rid of their curses. Unless of course you're the type of arsehole who prefers to ignore it and ignore cursed people's suffering, because it makes you feel better about yourself..?

 

[Bells]

You were talking about psychiatry, right?

It is indeed extremely embarrassing that most people still believe that psychiatry is legitimate and scientific.

The medical profession does.

After all, psychiatry is actually a medical specialty.

If I had the necessary power, I'd introduce mandatory re-education and all people would be forced to learn what science is and how science works. So we'd have fewer idiots who'd believe not only in psychiatry, but also astrology, homeopathy, out of body experiences, religion, witchcraft, and so on... and I'd also severely punish the improper use of the word "science"

Ah but if you were king.

Thankfully you are not. Instead you get to spread your lies and disinformation on forums such as this one.

This is a completely dumb analogy. Not only dumb, but probably the dumbest.

Actually no.

There is a vapid movement against immunisation and their argument that it's all useless matches your pathetic argument that there is no such thing as a mental illness.

Viruses are real, we can detect them in a purely scientific and objective manner. They're effects can also be detected. Vaccines are also real and do work and we know how they work and prevent virus infection - everything is real and verifiable by anyone.

And yet, there are some who believe that it is best to actually come down with the viruses than be immunised and that immunisation can lead to higher risk of autism.. Do you believe autism is real? Or do you think the kids are just slow?

Mental "illnesses" are the complete opposite of viruses and vaccines. Everything is relative, subjective, non-detectable in a scientific manner, non measurable/quantifiable, everything is made up by humans all depends on human opinion.

You are actually incorrect.

Not only is it detectable, but also measurable. For example, with Schizophrenia, psychiatrists and neurologists are using brain scans which show distinct changes in brain activity in people who suffer from the mental disease:

Schizophrenia is associated with subtle differences in brain structures, found in 40 to 50% of cases, and in brain chemistry during acute psychotic states.[2] Studies using neuropsychological tests and brain imaging technologies such as fMRI and PET to examine functional differences in brain activity have shown that differences seem to most commonly occur in the frontal lobes, hippocampus and temporal lobes.[52] Reductions in brain volume, smaller than those found in Alzheimer's disease, have been reported in areas of the frontal cortex and temporal lobes. It is uncertain whether these volumetric changes are progressive or preexist prior to the onset of the disease.[53] These differences have been linked to the neurocognitive deficits often associated with schizophrenia.[54] Because neural circuits are altered, it has alternatively been suggested that schizophrenia should be thought of as a collection of neurodevelopmental disorders.[55]

The actual benefit of accepting and recognizing that witchcraft "is real and all physical" is to ensure that occult and religious research continues and counter-curses and exorcism procedures are developed to help people live and manage or get rid of their curses. Unless of course you're the type of arsehole who prefers to ignore it and ignore cursed people's suffering, because it makes you feel better about yourself..?

Or we can simply believe the experts in medicine and ignore quacks who feel better about themselves for the lies and disinformation they spread by declaring without any proof whatsoever, that mental illness is not real, to get their rocks off.

 

[Syne]

You just don't get it. Mentally ill people don't HAVE the luxury of dismissing meds just because they feel less of a person. When it comes to having to choose between depression, and mania, and voices in the head, or not having deeper emotions, the choice is more than obvious. Many drugs even take away their sex drive. But even that is a small concession for the benefit of not having to go thru the full blown crippling symptoms of their disorder. If you REALLY knew mentally ill people you'd know this already. But you don't do you? You just sit in your armchair and pontificate about a subject you have absolutely no experience with just to push some weird ideological agenda you have.

So you finally do admit what both the OP and I have been telling you. Meds have a negative effect on perceived quality of life. The choice may be obvious to you, as a selfish bystander of such behavior, but you are not the one whose life has become so hollow as to be not worth living, even without any symptoms of depression. You want to sound so sympathetic to those suffering from the disorder, but it all comes down to how their suffering effects you. And this is exactly what these meds are designed to address, the outward symptoms.

 

[christa]

Many drugs even take away their sex drive. But even that is a small concession for the benefit of not having to go thru the full blown crippling symptoms of their disorder.

I have to say..... That, that was a huge reason why I would actually get off my meds... That and the fact of I felt fine so why not!? Just lead to even crazier times

 

[wynn]

So you finally do admit what both the OP and I have been telling you. Meds have a negative effect on perceived quality of life. The choice may be obvious to you, as a selfish bystander of such behavior, but you are not the one whose life has become so hollow as to be not worth living, even without any symptoms of depression.

You want to sound so sympathetic to those suffering from the disorder, but it all comes down to how their suffering effects you. And this is exactly what these meds are designed to address, the outward symptoms.

Yes. It is really sad that this is happening.

 

[Magical Realist]

So you finally do admit what both the OP and I have been telling you. Meds have a negative effect on perceived quality of life. The choice may be obvious to you, as a selfish bystander of such behavior, but you are not the one whose life has become so hollow as to be not worth living, even without any symptoms of depression. You want to sound so sympathetic to those suffering from the disorder, but it all comes down to how their suffering effects you. And this is exactly what these meds are designed to address, the outward symptoms.

Like I said the negative side effects of meds are neglible compared to their beneficial effects in treating mental illness. And they're coming out with new meds every year that have fewer and fewer negative side effects. But you wouldn't know anything about that would you? Actually having to get to know mentally ill people might upset your little exciting conspiracy world of big evil drug companies and mad scientists. And we can't have that can we?

 

[Syne]

Like I said the negative side effects of meds are neglible compared to their beneficial effects in treating mental illness. And they're coming out with new meds every year that have fewer and fewer negative side effects. But you wouldn't know anything about that would you? Actually having to get to know mentally ill people might upset your little exciting conspiracy world of big evil drug companies and mad scientists. And we can't have that can we?

Intellectually dishonest straw man.

 

[LaurieAG]

The actual benefit of accepting and recognising that mental illness "is real and all physical" is to ensure research continues and help and medication is developed to help them live and cope with their illness. Unless of course you're the type of arsehole who prefers to ignore it and ignore people's suffering, because it makes you feel better about yourself..?

That was in todays NYT Editorial. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/opinion/sunday/what-we-dont-know-is-killing-us.html?hp

But by the early 1990s, C.D.C. gun research had advanced to the point that it contradicted N.R.A. ideology. Some studies found, for example, that people living in a home with a gun were not safer; they faced a significantly elevated risk of homicide and suicide.

The N.R.A. denounced the research as “political opinion masquerading as medical science,” and in 1996, Congress took $2.6 million intended for gun research and redirected it to traumatic brain injury. It prohibited the use of C.D.C. money “to advocate or promote gun control.” Since then, similar prohibitions have been imposed on other agencies, including the National Institutes of Health.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

people living in a home with a gun were not safer; they faced a significantly elevated risk of homicide and suicide.

This isn't just true of a home, but of an entire country. In the USA, guns now kill slightly more people than cars (about 30,000 per year), making them one of the top ten causes of death for the first time ever. Each one of us has a one percent probability that the cause of our own death will be a gun.

Around 2/3 of gun deaths are suicides. But that's not much comfort, considering the number of people who once in their life feel so depressed that they give serious thought to ending it all. Running the car exhaust into the passenger compartment, overdosing on pills, jumping off of a building, etc., these methods of suicide take a lot of planning and have a high probability of leaving you physically and/or mentally disabled rather than dead. If you have a gun it just takes a few seconds to grab it and aim at your brain, not long enough for the adrenaline to dissipate and leave you wondering, "Why the fuck am I doing this?"

What steams me is that, if my neighbor makes the decision to buy a gun because he is convinced that it will make him safer, statistically he is making me less safe.

Yes, I know people who live in rural areas where it takes the authorities half an hour to drive to their house in an emergency, and they feel that they logically need a gun for protection. They always mention wild animals first, even though the the most common cause of animal attacks requiring medical care in the USA is the domestic cat and bison kill more people than mountain lions. But then they admit that they're worried about disreputable people driving all the way out there to break into their house, knowing that the cops will never arrive.

My answer to this is, "Why the fuck would anybody want to live in a shitty place like that, where they don't feel safe inside their own house?" That would drive me crazy. I guess it drives them crazy too, that's why they buy guns.

 

[Syne]

This isn't just true of a home, but of an entire country. In the USA, guns now kill slightly more people than cars (about 30,000 per year), making them one of the top ten causes of death for the first time ever. Each one of us has a one percent probability that the cause of our own death will be a gun.

This seems to be a bit of a cross-post from another thread, but to bring it more on-topic, drug overdose causes more deaths than guns, and it has definitely surpassed car accidents.

Accidental drug overdose is currently the leading cause of injury-related death in the United States for people between the ages of 35-54 and the second leading cause of injury-related death for young people. Drug overdose deaths now exceed those attributable to firearms, homicides or HIV/AIDS. -http://www.drugpolicy.org/drug-overdose


Fatal prescription drug overdoses surpassed car crashes as the leading cause of accidental death in 2007, according to the Department of Health. Many of the overdoses (36 percent) involve prescription opioid painkillers, which were actually the cause of more overdose deaths than heroin and cocaine combined. -http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a.../11/suicide-and-poisoning-rate-increased.aspx


That signals a near doubling in about 7 years, and when you look at numbers from 1999, we're talking about triple the accidental drug overdose deaths in just over a decade! Fastest growing cause of death in our country ladies and gentlemen. -http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...201112/us-drug-overdose-deaths-are-increasing​

But perhaps even more on-topic:

Antidepressants May Be Fueling the Problem

Sadly, the knee-jerk conventional treatment for depression and suicidal tendencies is almost exclusively prescription antidepressants. Every year, more than 253 million prescriptions for antidepressants are filled in the United States, making them the second most prescribed drug class in the United States (second only to cholesterol-lowering drugs). But how effective are antidepressants in alleviating the symptoms of depression?

Studies have repeatedly demonstrated that antidepressants are no more effective than a placebo, and in some case less effective. A study published in the January 2010 issue of JAMA concluded there is little evidence that SSRIs (a popular group of antidepressants that includes Prozac, Paxil, and Zoloft) have any benefit to people with mild to moderate depression*.

The researchers stated:

"The magnitude of benefit of antidepressant medication compared with placebo... may be minimal or nonexistent, on average, in patients with mild or moderate symptoms."

SSRIs were found to be 33 percent effective, just like a sugar pill – but with far more adverse effects, including violence and suicidal thoughts and actions. Exercise actually outperforms antidepressants, but many still overlook this option.

There is much evidence that antidepressants intensify violent thoughts and behaviors, both suicidal and homicidal, especially among children. And, since the late 1980s, there have been frequent reports of increased violent behavior, including homicides and suicides, among individuals taking antidepressant drugs. -http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a.../11/suicide-and-poisoning-rate-increased.aspx​

*And the study results:

Conclusions The magnitude of benefit of antidepressant medication compared with placebo increases with severity of depression symptoms and may be minimal or nonexistent, on average, in patients with mild or moderate symptoms. For patients with very severe depression, the benefit of medications over placebo is substantial. -http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=185157​

This is exasperated by the DSM classifying all depression severity under major depression disorder (MDD). So treatment does not necessarily take severity into account, nor the lack of efficacy for the mild to moderate varieties. Seeing as some of the side effects of antidepressants can be contributory to gun violence, this is probably not wise.

 

[ccdan]

Not only is it detectable, but also measurable. For example, with Schizophrenia, psychiatrists and neurologists are using brain scans which show distinct changes in brain activity in people who suffer from the mental disease:

Or we can simply believe the experts in medicine and ignore quacks who feel better about themselves for the lies and disinformation they spread by declaring without any proof whatsoever, that mental illness is not real, to get their rocks off.

Oh, this is quite old, but you're spreading stupid lies: no, schizophrenia or any other so called "mental illness" has NEVER been diagnosed using "brain scans" or any other scientific tool.

All those brain scans are stupid quackery for the uneducated. You'll never find even a single double blind experiment trough which a psychiatrist can tell which brain scans belong to "mentally ill" and which to "normal" people (save for those with physical brain damage that's observable even in a non-psychiatric context)

The quacks are the psychiatrists and those who support them.