Vote YAY for nihilism !!

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barcelonic

Registered Senior Member
Any fellow nihilists around? I've just signed up and I guess it's like prison; I just wanna know who my friends are lol :)
I'm an atheist & a nihilist and I believe free will is an illusion.

I'll be honest I haven't really got much to say about nihilism I haven't posted a million times on other forums but I guess, for me, nihilism taught many things including the value of taking time outs, living my life at my own pace, the value of singing, dancing & laughter and the importance of seizing moments

I don't take credit for becoming a nihilist any more than I take credit for being Welsh or for being chronically ill. These are just some of the pluses and minuses in my life.

I'm happy to take questions about my noobishness here on these forums (lol), OR my views & nihilism in general, although I'd also really love to hear from like-minded people!

Thanks :)
 
When you announce that you are a 'nihilist', what do you intend the statement to mean?
 
Even if you do not believe in any "guiding force" or "greater power"... wouldn't the purpose or meaning of life be the living of that life itself, thus giving it an intrinsic meaning?
 
Kittamaru said:
Even if you do not believe in any "guiding force" or "greater power"... wouldn't the purpose or meaning of life be the living of that life itself, thus giving it an intrinsic meaning?
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Intinsic / subjective. Sure, yes. But i simply believe there is no objective meaning.

Like, i could give my life a meaning but it would be of my own volition. Whether I am good or bad doesn't matter outside of subjective interpretation.
 
Well, doesn't it matter to you if you are "good" or "bad"? I mean, I know that, even without the ideals of Christianity, I would still try to live my life for "good" so as to be a role model and to uphold my own honor :)
 
barcelonic said:
There is no objective purpose/meaning to life.
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I guess that I largely agree with that. I don't know of any grand purpose inherent in the cosmos itself. But that doesn't mean that individuals (or groups of people) can't have purposes or feel that their lives are meaningful somehow. Human beings are intentional engines.

Having said that, I rarely use the word 'nihilism' and don't really think of myself as being a nihilist.

To me, 'nihilism' is basically an ethical idea, the view that there is no justification for values, moral values in particular. I'm not inclined to identify with that. I'm certainly not one to deny the inter-subjective reality of good and evil (or other values like beauty and ugliness). Instead, I'm inclined to explain these kind of things in terms of human psychology, in morality's case in terms of innate social instincts.

In other words, human beings do feel that some actions are right and other actions wrong, not just for themselves but for others too, even if they can't always agree on the precise details of which actions are which. That kind of belief is kind of definitive of what morality is. I think that it's something inherent in our being human.

But if all human beings were to suddenly disappear, I think that morality, good and evil, would disappear along with us. It probably isn't written into the cosmos or anything. The rest of the inanimate universe would just be there.

That's leaving other sentient beings out of the equation, of course. If they live in groups, it's very likely that they will have something analogous to moral intuitions of their own. And it's conceivable that their 'moral' instincts might be radically different from ours. Imagine the kind of 'morality' that alien beings like intelligent social insects might have if they share their memories or something. They/it might think of the lives of individual workers as entirely expendable and have no moral compunction at all about killing them or sending them to their deaths, provided that it serves the greater good. The death of an individual worker wouldn't be the death of a fully-formed individual self, but something more like a skin cell flaking off.
 
@Yazata

The word 'nihilist' has some negative connotations and most people tend to think of it as something bad but it isn't. With humans I don't see it leading to murder because killing would be just as difficult. Identifying one's philosophy wouldn't lead to the empathy part of their brain to be altered in any way and so it would be hard for someone to hurt someone else, just as much as before.
But the word is tainted if you ask me

Kittamaru said:
Well, doesn't it matter to you if you are "good" or "bad"? I mean, I know that, even without the ideals of Christianity, I would still try to live my life for "good" so as to be a role model and to uphold my own honor :)
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Yes it does. And me too. :)

But objectively it doesn't. It matters to me subjectively because i feel guilt as much as anybody else. I'm an empathetic person and hurting someone else would hurt me too. We are biologically led to be good people; reasons aren't as relevant as we think.
 
I've never been able to get beyond the extrospective world that I perceive and feel / think about. Which is also intersubjective from the standpoint that people can communicate with each other about it ("objective" in that manner). Such a world is a product of consciousness and reflective thought, if one believes that what follows death is eternal oblivion (i.e., accordingly a completely mind-independent reality would not exhibit and understand itself, as is happening in this mind-dependent version of it generated by living, conscious agents).

Since I've never had revelations of whatever this supposed "ultimate objective world" is like that is free from all of our phenomenal and intellectual representations [aside from the blankness of temporary unconsciousness], and I'm skeptical of those who claim to have acquired such access, then this everyday reality of commonsense and scientific exploration is the only "world" I'm familiar with. And the latter is unavoidably chopped full of meaning via not only by being a variety of qualitative manifestations, but a realm whose objects are correlated to concepts, language, and memory everywhere a human turns [i.e., an "understandable" domain, an understood domain].

So there may be some transcendent environment that is meaningless, but it's certainly not the empirical one my body is presented as being embedded in, or even the somewhat invisible one inferred by experiments and theories (i.e., by virtue of having to be reasoned out and dealt with as abstract description the latter likewise voids any claim to being meaningless).
 
Like, i could give my life a meaning but it would be of my own volition.
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I thought you didn't believe in freewill. Also, wouldn't the decision to act in ways in which meaning is generated both for us and for others constitute an instance of objective meaning? Say like when a couple decides to have a baby. This turns into an enormously meaningful experience which has value and purpose for us and for others.

I think meaning is the essence of being conscious of our own being. We may impute that meaning to some external scenario of spiritual enlightenment, as I believe Harris does, or we may view ourselves as meaningless configurations of atoms. But that we are conscious of a world that so naturally accommodates our being in a thousand different ways, materially and evolutionarily and culturally and socially, entails that we have a place here, that we belong, and that we are meant to be here in some mysterious sense. I can't think of any better proof against nihilism that this. The very fact that we find it impossible to conceive of a reality independent of our consciousness that is constantly "thrown" into a universe teeming with aesthetic and even transcendental values. We certainly aren't just making this all up ourselves. It IS our Reality, and I suspect that there really is no other.
 
Magical Realist said:
I thought you didn't believe in freewill. Also, wouldn't the decision to act in ways in which meaning is generated both for us and for others constitute an instance of objective meaning? Say like when a couple decides to have a baby. This turns into an enormously meaningful experience which has value and purpose for us and for others.

I think meaning is the essence of being conscious of our own being. We may impute that meaning to some external scenario of spiritual enlightenment, as I believe Harris does, or we may view ourselves as meaningless configurations of atoms. But that we are conscious of a world that so naturally accommodates our being in a thousand different ways, materially and evolutionarily and culturally and socially, entails that we have a place here, that we belong, and that we are meant to be here in some mysterious sense. I can't think of any better proof against nihilism that this. The very fact that we find it impossible to conceive of a reality independent of our consciousness that is constantly "thrown" into a universe teeming with aesthetic and even transcendental values. We certainly aren't just making this all up ourselves. It IS our Reality, and I suspect that there really is no other.
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Well that's a valid belief but not proof against nihilism.

Firstly, believing free will is illusory doesn't come with a requirement to adjust language and find new words. There is the word ' I ' - so when I say I choose to draw a picture there should be no requirement to drag free will into a conversation like that by instead saying "I experience making a choice but know while the decision may feel like mine, it isn't." Remember, I believe free will is an illusion, not that it doesn't exist; it's an illusion which seems as real as it would if it free will were not an illusion. This is purely linguistic.

As for your account of "our reality", bear in mind that all of your subjective claims are just that - subjective. It is the same logic people use to hunt animals and take slaves. If I adopt the perspectives of rabbits then I'm sure they too feel it is their world, their reality. And I'm sure they don't think it is our reality. Unlike you, I believe there is nothing remarkable about us at all; we developed the powers of speech and critical thinking much like the slug acquired the power of leaving slime behind it. Certainly we value one more than the other but however our development could have ended would be how it ended.

For instance, the piece of sand on a beach which has the best view might be mistaken for thinking there was some reason he had the best view beyond pure chance. He might think that, if there were 5 trillion grains there, it makes far more sense that there was a reason than the odds of 5 trillion to one, but that is only taken from a subjective point of view. Whichever grain got the best view it would be prone to making the same mistake.
Once, the illusionist Derren Brown did a show based on this whereby he sent thousands of letters to people across London telling them of 'The System', in which they claimed to have found a gambling system which always picked the winning horse. Nobody believed it until they had received 5 or 6 winning horses in a row. At that point they were convinced. Of course, they didn't know that other people got different horses and they only contacted the ones who had won 5 or 6 times.
It is the nature of a subjective view.
 
barcelonic said:
Well that's a valid belief but not proof against nihilism.
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Don't cherry pick out of my statements contextless phrases. Here's what I said again:

But that we are conscious of a world that so naturally accommodates our being in a thousand different ways, materially and evolutionarily and culturally and socially, entails that we have a place here, that we belong, and that we are meant to be here in some mysterious sense. I can't think of any better proof against nihilism that this.

Firstly, believing free will is illusory doesn't come with a requirement to adjust language and find new words. There is the word ' I ' - so when I say I choose to draw a picture there should be no requirement to drag free will into a conversation like that by instead saying "I experience making a choice but know while the decision may feel like mine, it isn't." Remember, I believe free will is an illusion, not that it doesn't exist; it's an illusion which seems as real as it would if it free will were not an illusion. This is purely linguistic.
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You claimed you had volition. How can you have volition if freewill is illusory?

As for your account of "our reality", bear in mind that all of your subjective claims are just that - subjective. It is the same logic people use to hunt animals and take slaves. If I adopt the perspectives of rabbits then I'm sure they too feel it is their world, their reality. And I'm sure they don't think it is our reality. Unlike you, I believe there is nothing remarkable about us at all; we developed the powers of speech and critical thinking much like the slug acquired the power of leaving slime behind it. Certainly we value one more than the other but however our development could have ended would be how it ended.

For instance, the piece of sand on a beach which has the best view might be mistaken for thinking there was some reason he had the best view beyond pure chance. He might think that, if there were 5 trillion grains there, it makes far more sense that there was a reason than the odds of 5 trillion to one, but that is only taken from a subjective point of view. Whichever grain got the best view it would be prone to making the same mistake.
Once, the illusionist Derren Brown did a show based on this whereby he sent thousands of letters to people across London telling them of 'The System', in which they claimed to have found a gambling system which always picked the winning horse. Nobody believed it until they had received 5 or 6 winning horses in a row. At that point they were convinced. Of course, they didn't know that other people got different horses and they only contacted the ones who had won 5 or 6 times.
It is the nature of a subjective view.
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Yes..reality itself is subjective. Consciousness of reality is subjective. But that doesn't mean the qualities and values and properties we experience it having are illusions that don't really exist. There is simply no other way of conceiving reality apart from a self-centric perspective--an inclusive always "in progress" life full of meaning and purpose and values that don't just exist in our own heads. In a word, the idea that there is this purely objective reality which exists beyond any possible experience of it is a myth. Even the most hardcore materialist is conceiving of a reality that conforms to his expectations of understandability and reducibility to his own theories and concepts. We happen to be part of the reality we experience, and our consciousness is actively participating in that reality being what it is every second. That's what my experience shows me. And I doubt you experience reality any differently.
 
Barcelonic said:
Any fellow nihilists around?
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I’m an atheist and a live-ist.

The laws of the universe are not of divine wisdom. Therefore, nature loses its noble status. It’s a big finger to the pious, isn't it? Now that, I like. :mufc:

It’s also comforting knowing that you will not taste death but there is a little resentment that comes with knowing. That’s where the negative connotations appear to arise from, the bitterness, knowing in the face of the unknown, light in midst of darkness.

Cosmic fate; it’s a double edge sword, isn't it? Does the little part I play make a difference to the whole? What whole, whole what? :shrug:

What can a nihilist really say about reality, hmm? That it doesn't exist? That it is not good? Nope, all they can say is in the end it doesn't really matter. But that’s getting a little ahead of oneself, isn't it? Projecting yourself into oblivion and facing your ultimate limit. A future that you will never know; does it matter? Does it matter to you, now? You have this little truth. Will you reject this world in favor of an inhospitable zero point? I hope not.

Sorry to hear that you’re sick. I’ll do my best to keep you entertained. :D

Cheers!
 
@Trooper - thanks mate for making yourself known :)


Magical Realist said:
Don't cherry pick out of my statements contextless phrases. Here's what I said again:

But that we are conscious of a world that so naturally accommodates our being in a thousand different ways, materially and evolutionarily and culturally and socially, entails that we have a place here, that we belong, and that we are meant to be here in some mysterious sense. I can't think of any better proof against nihilism that this.



You claimed you had volition. How can you have volition if freewill is illusory?



Yes..reality itself is subjective. Consciousness of reality is subjective. But that doesn't mean the qualities and values and properties we experience it having are illusions that don't really exist. There is simply no other way of conceiving reality apart from a self-centric perspective--an inclusive always "in progress" life full of meaning and purpose and values that don't just exist in our own heads. In a word, the idea that there is this purely objective reality which exists beyond any possible experience of it is a myth. Even the most hardcore materialist is conceiving of a reality that conforms to his expectations of understandability and reducibility to his own theories and concepts. We happen to be part of the reality we experience, and our consciousness is actively participating in that reality being what it is every second. That's what my experience shows me. And I doubt you experience reality any differently.
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MR I am truly sorry I can see why it looks like that. It wasn't my intention to cherry-pick anything and in fact, my post was not meant to address the underlined but your whole post. I'm still sorry though as it does actually look like that.

As for your second part I did address this and explained it is linguistic. I also use the words 'choice', 'choose' and every other word relating to decision-making. I offered an explanation for this and I'm sorry if it's not sufficient.

In science a subject could write 1,000 pages as part of a study and every last page might well be thrown out by the researcher if it is all subjective. It could be the best writing ever and describe the human experience better than Shakespeare and every other romantic writer put together and yet it would be thrown out. The qualities, properties and values we experience are meaningless when discussing the objective, because it is all subjective. Objectively, there is no such thing as beauty; it is in the eye of the beholder and were we able to see without everything that makes us humans, we would see nothing noteworthy at all. What is love to a rock?

When we empathise we step outside of ourselves and into another human's shoes. This to me suggests that self-centrism isn't the only way to view reality. We can imagine what the Earth would be like without us. We can philosophise as we are doing right here and come up with all kinds of interesting perspectives. So I'd have to disagree with you I'm afraid.
 
The qualities, properties and values we experience are meaningless when discussing the objective, because it is all subjective.
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I challenge you then to describe the objective without using qualities, properties, or values. I don't think you could do it. Everything we experience of objective reality consists of subjective and perspectival states. An apple for example has such and such properties and qualities. A chair has different properties and qualities. And so on and so forth.

Objectively, there is no such thing as beauty; it is in the eye of the beholder and were we able to see without everything that makes us humans, we would see nothing noteworthy at all. What is love to a rock?
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If beauty were only subjective, there would be little consensus on what is beautiful. In point of fact there is a lot of objective beauty out there. In faces and rainbows and diamonds and flowers and sunsets. Certain harmonies of light and sound consistently generate the experience of beauty. Ever hear of the Golden Ratio? And if we were to try to see without our eyes we wouldn't see anything. Seeing is what our eyes do. Love is what humans experience. Rocks have no capacity for this.
You seem to imagine a kind of experience of reality that isn't subjective. Good luck with that as I'm pretty sure there's no such thing.

When we empathise we step outside of ourselves and into another human's shoes. This to me suggests that self-centrism isn't the only way to view reality. We can imagine what the Earth would be like without us. We can philosophise as we are doing right here and come up with all kinds of interesting perspectives. So I'd have to disagree with you I'm afraid.
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Empathy believe it or not IS a subjective experience. You are experiencing reality from another's perspective. And earth without you? Tell me what that is like. What will earth be to you when you are dead? How will it look? How big will it be? How warm? What shape will it take in this absolute void of your nonexistence? See, even science concedes the necessary presence of an existent subject for an objective reality to exist. That subject for them usually takes the form a conceiving mind, a bodiless entity capable of having thoughts and sensations and views on the imagined scenario. The Cogito of Cartesian dualism.
 
Yazata said:
When you announce that you are a 'nihilist', what do you intend the statement to mean?
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It means you're seeking the like-minded. That's the only reason you're here.

barcelonic said:
@Yazata
The word 'nihilist' has some negative connotations and most people tend to think of it as something bad but it isn't. With humans I don't see it leading to murder because killing would be just as difficult. Identifying one's philosophy wouldn't lead to the empathy part of their brain to be altered in any way and so it would be hard for someone to hurt someone else, just as much as before.
But the word is tainted if you ask me
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Yes, unfortunately you're just going to have to deal with that.
Once you admit to being a nihilist, you're going to have to deal with that negative connotation, and those who will seek you impress upon you their own solutions to your problem.
Everyone thinks they have an answer. You don't. Unfortunately for you, it's rather difficult defending what is perceived to be a non-position.
If it helps, I like you.

It matters to me subjectively because i feel guilt as much as anybody else. I'm an empathetic person and hurting someone else would hurt me too. We are biologically led to be good people; reasons aren't as relevant as we think.
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There is only one question remaining once you've reached the conclusions you have.

What are you going to do now?
 
The Marquis said:
Yes, unfortunately you're just going to have to deal with that.
Once you admit to being a nihilist, you're going to have to deal with that negative connotation, and those who will seek you impress upon you their own solutions to your problem.
Everyone thinks they have an answer. You don't. Unfortunately for you, it's rather difficult defending what is perceived to be a non-position.
If it helps, I like you.


There is only one question remaining once you've reached the conclusions you have.

What are you going to do now?
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Erm... I have to say I'm quite confused. Nihilism is not a wasting disease or a bout of alcoholism, and yet you seem to treat it as such. Either that or you are being passive-aggressive - I'd rather lean toward the former. :)

"Once you admit to being a nihilist"

You mean, like I did in the OP?

"You're going to have to deal with that negative connotation"

I've been a nihilist for years, y'know. In fact, I'd say I know a lot more about it than you do and there is nothing for me to "deal with". Perhaps you too would see said connotation as an injustice if you better understood where it came from.

"...solutions to your problem."

Excuse me? Do you think it civil to label somebody's beliefs a "problem". I have no problem but the one you seem intent on creating!

"Everyone thinks they have an answer. You don't."

Have I done something to offend you, o wise stranger? You seem to be particularly antagonistic toward me and I can't explain why - ??
Sure, I disagree all the time but I don't speak to others like children. Mostly I'm just not that offended by pure disagreement.

"... a non-position"

Is that what others think or what you think? Please elaborate on this because it is news to me.
Honestly, this is a discussion forum. I don't feel I should have to ask you to elaborate on something like this. Perhaps you could try beginning the sentence with, "Some people think it's a non-position BECAUSE...."


Why are you being so disrespectful? It seems rather out-of-the-blue :(
 
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barcelonic said:
The word 'nihilist' has some negative connotations and most people tend to think of it as something bad but it isn't.
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'Nihilist' is typically a perjorative, an insult or term of abuse. It isn't typically something that people call themselves. More or less by definition, a nihilist believes in nothing and disdains all values.

I agree with you that values, and good and evil in particular, probably aren't built into the universe itself. Human beings give rise to them.

But I most emphatically don't identify myself with nihilism, precisely because I do believe in things and don't disdain all values.

I just think that our human values are precisely that, human values, and most likely are local here on Earth, instead of being universal or divine. If we ever encounter space-aliens, they might conceivably have very different analogues of moral values. But if they live in social groups, then there will probably be something that plays a similar role in regulating their behavior so that it's functional in an evolutionary sense.
 
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