Virus's: Life or non life?

[Michael 345]

I was trying to gently point out to the poster that line of reasoning is erroneous (viruses generating ATP).

OK my reply Post 2 here, disagrees more about determining life by ATP yes/no

I consider alive on the criteria viruses which infect cells reproduce

DEAD (ie none living) viruses may trigger an immune response but don't reproduce

So to me the ATP is moot. The virus can have a weird life cycle but dead ones don't get resurrected hence get into a cell and reproduce - it was just resting -

 

[KUMAR5]

AFAIK, viruses have an expiration date. If they are unable to communicate they'll be isolated individuals. Don't forget viruses are incredibly small. ...!

Now I could follow it. Anti Quorum Sensing or Quorum Sensing inhibitors are in pipeline.Hope, it works better than anti-microbial or antibiotics. It will attend antibiotic resistance issue.

However we have to see how it works for virus and if it will also not be opposed by bacteria and virus anyway. In nature, natural selection and evolution happen. Every being become capable to keep them survived and grow. Although
extinction also happen. But I think, at the moment we can not claim extinction of Bacteria and virus is at all possible. Then they will evolve against anything which can threaten their survival and growth.

 

[KUMAR5]

5



What are 5 characteristics of cancer cells?


Contents

• 1.1 Self-sufficiency in growth signals.
• 1.2 Insensitivity to anti-growth signals.
• 1.3 Evading programmed cell death.
• 1.4 Limitless replicative potential.
• 1.5 Sustained angiogenesis.
• 1.6 Tissue invasion and metastasis.

How they commonly acquire above characteristics,?
Should we not be extra cautious for no being acquire sbove type characteristics by prefering modification in them? Killing them is ultimate but modify thém may not be ultimate as all beings should be able to evolve accordingly for their survival snd growth...somewhat a nature's gift to one being but curse to other. Yes we can base for their extinction if can.

 

[Write4U]

1.4 Limitless replicative potential

That really sounds intriguing.

Unlimited replication could potentially lead to immortality. There is an immortal jellyfish.

 

[KUMAR5]

That really sounds intriguing.

Unlimited replication could potentially lead to immortality. There is an immortal jellyfish.

Pls try to understand, why I posted this new cancer issue. In some sense can cells become anti- socials or independent. Probably in long term targeting quorom sensing may also lead to bacteria may behave like these cells... individually. Just speculating logically. Targeting quorom sensing may also mean making them anti-social so independent.

 

[Write4U]

Pls try to understand, why I posted this new cancer issue. In some sense can cells become anti- socials or independent.

Yes but AFAIK that has nothing to do with quorum sensing.

Probably in long term targeting quorom sensing may also lead to bacteria may behave like these cells... individually. Just speculating logically. Targeting quorom sensing may also mean making them anti-social so independent.

I'm not quite sure if you understand the full implication of quorum sensing. Not every cell or biochemical organization has quorum sensing ability.
It requires a specific language (chemical words) and and recognition (chemical receptors) of that specific language.

In fact, Bassler obseved that bacteria are bi-lingual. They speak and understand their own specific language (intra-species communication) and they all speak a common language (inter-species communication).

Intra-species language are chemical signals that trigger a specific response in siblings.
Inter-species communication is basically a warning signal to other bacteria to stay clear.
Apparently bacteriophages and virophages are immune to those signals.

I still have not been able to confirm that viruses do have quorum sensing. There is the question of ability to produce specific hormones and the ability to receive and understand the information. But a reliable source (posted elsewhere) have observed viruses "talking" to each other while the extant bacteria where silent. So I am positing this with qualifier.

The ability for quorum sensing is peculiar to bacteria, (perhaps) viruses, and other communicating species, and in robotics.

I would guess that all physical patterns are responsive to some form of wave frequency, perhaps a pre-evolutionary, proto-form of reception ability. Consider "harmonics" as a form of proto quorum sensing.......

 

[KUMAR5]

I'm not quite sure if you understand the full implication of quorum sensing. Not every cell or biochemical organization has quorum sensing ability.
It requires a language and and recognition of that specific language.

In fact, Bassler obseved that bacteria are bi-lingual. They speak and understand their own specific language (intra-species communication) and they all speak a common language (inter-species communication).

They intra-species language are chemical signal that trigger a specific response in siblings. Inter-species communication is basically a warning signal to other bacteria to stay clear. Apparently bacteriophages are immune to those signals.

I still have not been able to confirm that viruses do have quorum sensing. There is the question of ability to produce specific hormones and the ability to receive and understand the information. But a reliable source (posted elsewhere) have observed viruses "talking" to each other while the extant bacteria where silent. So I am positing this with qualifier.

The ability for quorum sensing is peculiar to bacteria, (perhaps) viruses, and other communicating species, and in robotics.

I would guess that all physical patterns are responsive to some form of wave frequency, perhaps a pre-evolutionary, proto-form of reception ability. Consider "harmonics" as a form of proto quorum sensing.......

Okay, pls tell me in your language, how we are thinking or doing to target this quorum sensing and in what way such targeting will inpact to bacteria or virus?

 

[Write4U]

Okay, pls tell me in your language, how we are thinking or doing to target this quorum sensing and in what way such targeting will inpact to bacteria or virus?

OK, I'll use bacteria because Bassler demonstrated this pictorially.
Each bacteria produces a specific hormone which fits only to a sibling receptor (specific intra-species) communication), which is the quorum sensing mechanism. We can copy this hormone with a slight modification which will fit the siblings receptor but does not trigger a response. Its a plug that prevent the sibling from "hearing" the trigger commands.

Bacteria do not get virulent on their own. They are too small and their virulence must be triggered. Bu they must first build an entire army before they can muster an effective attack.
So at first, all they do is multiply without virulence, until there are sufficient density of bacteria. This density (numbers) is what is measured by the quorum sensing of the density of the hormones, which attach to their receptors.

The quorum sensing ability allow the bacteria to sense if there are sufficient numbers, before they trigger virulence in concert. It is remarkable!

 

[KUMAR5]

We can copy this hormone with a slight modification which will fit the siblings receptor but does not trigger a response

It means, it will interfer in their normal activity against which they will tend to evolve sooner or later. Now if they got evolved to carry on their activities individually without quorum sensing, will they not become cancer cell like more dangerous? Or they will just die and extinct due to such anti quórum sensing measures? Either they will evolve to do all activities individually or will die and be extinct.

 

[Write4U]

It means, it will interfer in their normal activity against which they will tend to evolve sooner or later. Now if they got evolved to carry on their activities individually without quorum sensing, will they not become cancer cell like more dangerous? Or they will just die and extinct due to such anti quórum sensing measures? Either they will evolve to do all activities individually or will die and be extinct.

As I understand it, you cannot evolve against that, you don't get to do anything. Evolution occurs in offspring. Quorum interference does not allow for evolved or unevolved offspring . It does not allow for any offspring. Each individual dies and no one is the wiser.

 

[KUMAR5]

As I understand it, you cannot evolve against that, you don't get to do anything. Evolution occurs in offspring. Quorum interference does not allow for evolved or unevolved offspring . It does not allow for any offspring. Each individual dies and no one is the wiser.

How quorum interferesnce can stop offspring and their evolution? I do not think, quorum interfersnce can only restrict bactiria's virulence not their multiplication and evolution.

 

[KUMAR5]

Sorry, pls read last post as under:-
How quorum interferesnce can stop offspring and their evolution? I think, quorum interfersnce can only restrict bactiria's virulence not their multiplication and evolution.

 

[Write4U]

How quorum interference can stop offspring and their evolution? I do not think, quorum interference can only restrict bacteria's virulence not their multiplication and evolution.

Bacteria have on average a 12hr lifespan, during which they divide, but that process is not inexhaustible. As to viruses, I guess they may have a longer lifespan due to their simplicity

This may explain.
How Quorum Sensing Works
June 12, 2020

Bacterial communication relies on versatile chemical signaling molecules called autoinducers, which regulate bacterial gene expression in a process known as quorum sensing. Like languages between humans, these signals vary between species. Some bacterial species can interpret many different signals, while others respond to a select few. Quorum sensing allows individual bacteria within colonies to coordinate and carry out colony-wide functions such as: sporulation, bioluminescence, virulence, conjugation, competence and biofilm formation.

Overview of how quorum sensing works in bacteria.
Source: W. Jon Windsor

Once intracellular concentration increases, autoinducers bind to their receptors, triggering signaling cascades that alter transcription factor activity and therefore, gene expression. For many bacteria, the change in gene expression includes downregulation of autoinducer synthesis in a negative feedback loop.

........more.

https://asm.org/Articles/2020/June/How-Quorum-Sensing-Works

 

[KUMAR5]

Bacteria have on average a 12hr lifespan, during which they divide, but that process is not inexhaustible. As to viruses, I guess they may have a longer lifespan due to their simplicity

This may explain.
How Quorum Sensing Works
June 12, 2020

Overview of how quorum sensing works in bacteria.
Source: W. Jon Windsor
........more.

https://asm.org/Articles/2020/June/How-Quorum-Sensing-Works

Quorum interference will just discourage virulence of bacteria but may not their division/multiplication and evolution. Okay?

 

[KUMAR5]

Double post deleted.

 

[Write4U]

Quorum interference will just discourage virulence of bacteria but may not their division/multiplication and evolution. Okay?

Not sure. The illustration #4 shows a diminishing number on both sides of the cell due to down regulators?.
Question: when we kill bacteria or viruses how are the dead bodies removed?

 

[KUMAR5]

Not sure. The illustration #4 shows a diminishing number on both sides of the cell due to down regulators?.
Question: when we kill bacteria or viruses how are the dead bodies removed?

Sorry,I am not yet clear if quorum sensing or its inhibition is having any link with Bactria's division and evolution.
I think by denature of their corpses protein.

 

[Write4U]

Sorry,I am not yet clear if quorum sensing or its inhibition is having any link with Bactria's division and evolution.
I think by denature of their corpses protein.

Neither am I. If you can find something on that I'd be really intersted.

 

[Bells]

Mod Note

This isn't even really on topic.

And Write4U, you were warned about this earlier in the thread by James R..

I'll keep it short..

Cut it out.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

OK my reply Post 2 here, disagrees more about determining life by ATP yes/no

I consider alive on the criteria viruses which infect cells reproduce

i was listening to a scientist say effectively the virus is just code
additionally
the virus is incapable of self sustaining in its own biosphere... ?
it has no biosphere ?

can we establish a question around critical need to maintain life as being
required to maintain a specific biosphere ?
versus
a parasite that may be able to live, but can not live outside the host ?
does that parasite have its own biosphere ?
thus placing the biosphere concept
ahead of the parasite reliance on another living organism for life.

is a virus living when it is inside a biosphere ?
my instinctive answer is no
because it is a robot
like putting a robot limb on a person that is controlled by the person
the limb has no innate life even though it may be capable of having on board computing and carrying out functions
remove the person
and the robot limb has no concept of living life form that humans define as an independent life entity.
why ?
does it require biology ? does it require a biosphere ?

like behaviors
does a behavior pattern in a human define the humans absolute value of personality ?

Question: when we kill bacteria or viruses how are the dead bodies removed?

viruses cant be killed only the host biosphere ?
the robot programming mechanism stays intact
which is where vaccines come from ?

colloquial "Live"
versus
"active" (including passive & active) can we term 'functional'


a "functional" mechanism does not require sentient life biospheres to maintain it's derivative absolute term of independent innate value to life cycle interactive recognition