OK, lets just say it makes the range to (and hence the current change in trajectory) uncertain as the entire hot gas plume is returning echoes. When there is a few Km between planes that echo is much like from a point source (not angularly resolved) so the FA-22's missile is without any angular guidance from the plane's radar for the final 300 meters. Likewise the heat seeker guidance has some tendency to centroid, but the hottest spot is the biggest target; However read my third reply below about the effects of "IR opacity."
I have already admitted it was a mistake to use the WWII term "dog fight" as the engagement is by missile. That missile, as I noted in just made post, uses the radar returns to project ahead the intercept point - it would surely miss if it just flew at the target. If the attacking missile does not get discernable echo from the target plane but from both it and the plume that calculation (very sophisticated BTW)* will fail.
That would depend upon how "IR opaque" the plume is. To take a crude example, the seen temperature of the sun is only ~5000K despite the interior being more than 1,000,000K - Like the sun, the hot photons from the jet's tail plume are absorbved and not seen externally.
That is essentially totally wrong. The plane moves forward despite its air drag because the jet produces / is a rearward directed momentum. If the jet had its internal O2 supply it could fly much better in the total absence of air. Also note that it is in high, thin air that commercial jets fly best. Unfortunately the original video is no longer available, but as I recal, it did not slow down by significantly turning up. It vectored its thrust forward to stop and did disappear in its own plume.
Certainly gravity helps, but it is my understanding based on the no longer available video (and my memory of it) part of the fall was due to the upward directed vectored thrust.
Probably true but not the basically level stopping maneuver the SU-30 did in the video.
when the planes are a few Km apart or more the SU-30 falling 100m down does not change their angular relation relationship significantly.
Yes if one of its missile hits the plume hiding SU-30. Note, even though the vertically falling SU-30 can not track the attacking missile (mainly from angular considerations, not the radar characteristics of the plumb. ) It already knows when the first missile will arrive and if there is a second so knows when it is "safe" to level out again. (I put safe in quotes, as many missiles will turn back to attack again is there is a "fly by miss.")
I tend to agree with first part and admit that the SU-30 "hid in plume" may not work as a defense against missiles, (The Russians seem to think it is a good defense and if as I suspect it will make the missile's computed intercept point false, I would agree.) If it does work, the FA-22 will soon be out of missiles and need to turn tail to survive. Forget about its low RCS, that hot tail exhaust is a easy target, if your missile can catch it and continuously update the intercept point while FA-22's pilot is blacked out in a 22G turn. If it fails to kill on first try, it will turn and kill him before he recovers consciousness in the automatic level flight.
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* So sophisticated and accurate (when good radar returns are available) that many missile no longer even have any warhead - they are KE killers (KE =Kinetic Energy). The lack of warhead weight gives more range and better maneuverability.
OK, lets just say it makes the range to (and hence the current change in trajectory) uncertain as the entire hot gas plume is returning echoes. When there is a few Km between planes that echo is much like from a point source (not angularly resolved) so the FA-22's missile is without any angular guidance from the plane's radar for the final 300 meters. Likewise the heat seeker guidance has some tendency to centroid, but the hottest spot is the biggest target; However read my third reply below about the effects of "IR opacity."
I am not compromising to something that is just wrong. Explain to me how exactly a plume of heat from the jet which is probably at most 500-800 degrees would influence a radar. Especially a radar as sophisticated as the one on the F-22. I doubt that the scientists that built and designed radar throughout history have not already thought of the issue of heat and have not already corrected it.
Why would the entire gas plume be giving off echoes? The radar were talking about reflects off of SOLID surfaces. Air is not solid, neither is your magical plume.
I have already admitted it was a mistake to use the WWII term "dog fight" as the engagement is by missile. That missile, as I noted in just made post, uses the radar returns to project ahead the intercept point - it would surely miss if it just flew at the target. If the attacking missile does not get discernable echo from the target plane but from both it and the plume that calculation (very sophisticated BTW)* will fail.
No it doesn't. your assuming that there is some sort of command that tells the missile to always aim 50 feet ahead of the aircraft or something like that. It does not work that way. That calculation would not fail. Do you know how the detonation mechanism of that missile works?
Assuming you are right, the missile will aim for the plume, once it reaches the plume it will detonate. Do you know what the explosive? It is called annular fragmentation. What they do is they arrange long steel bars into a cylinder and weld the top of every other rod together and they do the same except in an opposite pattern for the bottem. When it detonates the rods are pushed outwards and expand, they retain a lot of momentum which means that they likely create a circle with a diameter that is probably close to the size of a plane, then they continue forwards using momentum and will plow and slice through anything they hit. While the missile may not have been guiding to your plane but rather the plume, it just so happens the plume will have a lot of steel bars flying through it that will shred your plane apart.
That would depend upon how "IR opaque" the plume is. To take a crude example, the seen temperature of the sun is only ~5000K despite the interior being more than 1,000,000K - Like the sun, the hot photons from the jet's tail plume are absorbved and not seen externally.
you just proved my point. An IR will ignore the plume because in terms of your example, they can see that even though there is an attractive 5000 degree plume (not the actual temperature I'm just using your numbers from your analogy) there is a beautiful 1,000,000 degree hotspot in the middle. Which do you think it would aim for?
That is essentially totally wrong. The plane moves forward despite its air drag because the jet produces / is a rearward directed momentum. If the jet had its internal O2 supply it could fly much better in the total absence of air. Also note that it is in high, thin air that commercial jets fly best.
Im sorry, but that is just plain stupid. The fans in the turbine spin really really fast, their angle and spin forces thrust backwards, thrust gets heated and expands, pushes against the engine and is trying to escape by going out the back, the exhaust thus is moving backwards.
It's because they have big wings and turbofan engines. Common sense.
Certainly gravity helps, but it is my understanding based on the no longer available video (and my memory of it) part of the fall was due to the upward directed vectored thrust.
Probably true but not the basically level stopping maneuver the SU-30 did in the video.
Are you telling me that the thrust vectoring can actually vector 180 degrees and put the plane in reverse? That is completely idiotic.
Anyways, this whole plume idea is still completely and totally stupid and suicidal.
Do you know what happens when your in level flight in air that is SIGNIFICANTLY less dense because of it's heat and you have no air speed? You drop like a rock.
Your plane would have to drop a good 500-1000 feet before it's control surfaces could kick in. Your plane would drop out of it's plume (assuming your right in one of your previous statements) in less than 3 seconds. It would be free falling with no control for at least 30 seconds to a minute.
It would be a massive target, especially considering that now that you just heated the skin of the plane up by at least a hundred degrees due to the plume you are now the biggest IR target for 40 miles.
Also, ever heard of thermal imaging? Guess what missile has it. The sidewinder-X.
Firefighters use it to detect humans even through smoke and fire. The sidewinder could easily distinguish your plane from the plume in the exact same way using it's sensor.
Easy kill.
I tend to agree with first part and admit that the SU-30 "hid in plume" may not work as a defense against missiles, (The Russians seem to think it is a good defense and if as I suspect it will make the missile's computed intercept point false, I would agree.) If it does work, the FA-22 will soon be out of missiles and need to turn tail to survive. Forget about its low RCS, that hot tail exhaust is a easy target, if your missile can catch it and continuously update the intercept point while FA-22's pilot is blacked out in a 22G turn. If it fails to kill on first try, it will turn and kill him before he recovers consciousness in the automatic level flight.
The Russians think that Obama is mobilizing 1 million troops to counter a civil war, we never landed on the moon, and that HAARP is a secret earthquake making machine.
I wouldn't put much faith in what they think. First your argument is that the F-22's missiles cant shoot down because somehow an SU-30 can instantly stop on demand, hover in it's own plume for however long it likes, and than resume faster than the speed of sound flight like nothing ever happened.
Now your making the leap that somehow the SU-30 can even DETECT yet alone LOCK ONTO an F-22. Oh, this is gonna be good.
It's IR signature is not nearly as hot as most other jets. Don't say "hot" as if it is amazingly high compared to other jets. It's a "stealth" fighter for a reason.
your still making the stupid assumption that the SU-30 can suddenly stop moving at a moments notice, hover for as long as it likes, and than exit at the same velocity it entered every single time the F-22 fires a missile, or that the pilots in the F-22 are dumbasses and shoot all their missiles at once on one target.
The F-22 only engages a 22 g turn if the pilot tells it to, your assuming they regularly do this.
You make so many foolish assumption Billy T. It simply does not work that way.
