Umboi: Did Rays Evolve The Ability To Fly?

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common_sense_seeker said:
Can you read?
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Hilarious.. Why would you even write that if you thought he couldn't read?
Let alone finish the rest of the post..

common_sense_seeker said:
The low flying ray would only need a thin film of water moving over it's gills. It could achieve this by acquiring seaspray as it flies, or even skim the tops of wavecrests if need be. It could even have evolved a 're-breather' facility, where water that has passed through the gills gets recycled to maximise the oxygen extraction, analgous to an aqualung rebreather.
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Give it up, you already made yourself look stupid. You might make it worse. Although that would be a real accomplishment..
 
You've got no expert knowledge whatsoever to counter my suggestion then. Quelle surprise. (edit: P.S you're avatar image is a joke)
 
btw: The breach strategy of the manta ray could be a remnant of the technique to rid themselves of parasites before the cleaner station symbiosis was established. Also note that the parasites can carry viruses, so animal that suffers from high rate of parasites is more likely to have viral genetic symbiosis, which can lead to strange and unexpected successful mutations for adaptability. PARASITIC INFECTIONS.
 
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common_sense_seeker said:
Can you read?
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Yes, it's an albatross, with long slender wings, specifically designed for gliding. Exactly UNLIKE the fins of a ray. So you haven't dealt with the relative energy requirements at all.

The low flying ray would only need a thin film of water moving over it's gills.
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Not quite, it would need a stream of OXYGENATED WATER flowing over it's gills.

It could achieve this by acquiring seaspray as it flies, or even skim the tops of wavecrests if need be.
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No. It requires a certain volume of OXYGENATED WATER to flow over it's gills, or it will suffocate. I think you are trying to argue that if moist the gills can process atmospheric oxygen easily, but clearly that's bullshit, or we'd see fish on land utilising saliva type glands.
 
phlogistician said:
No. It requires a certain volume of OXYGENATED WATER to flow over it's gills, or it will suffocate. I think you are trying to argue that if moist the gills can process atmospheric oxygen easily..
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No I wasn't. I'm saying that the oxygen requirements of this type of flight is so low, comparable to a bird at rest, that only a very small flow of oxygenated water is necessary. This can be acquired through the wave touching, seaspray ground effect that this type of flight requires.
 
common_sense_seeker said:
No I wasn't. I'm saying that the oxygen requirements of this type of flight is so low, comparable to a bird at rest, that only a very small flow of oxygenated water is necessary. This can be acquired through the wave touching, seaspray ground effect that this type of flight requires.
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Com'on phlog..? Make sense now?
 
common_sense_seeker said:
No I wasn't. I'm saying that the oxygen requirements of this type of flight is so low, comparable to a bird at rest, that only a very small flow of oxygenated water is necessary. This can be acquired through the wave touching, seaspray ground effect that this type of flight requires.
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You don't get it do you. It's LOW for a BIRD in flight.

It's LOW because the Albatross utilises air currents to stay aloft. If can do that because it has long slender wings designed for gliding.

A Ray DOES NOT HAVE LONG SLENDER WINGS DESIGNED FOR GLIDING.

A Ray DOES NOT HAVE THE METABOLISM OR PHYSIOLOGY OF A BIRD.

So YOU CANNOT EXTRAPOLATE THE ENERGY REQUIREMENTS FROM AN ALBATROSS TO A RAY.
 
common_sense_seeker said:
How about the question of water flow over the gills. A very small amount then?
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NO. A HUGE VOLUME of water passes through gills, as the water doesn't contain that much oxygen. You need to prove a mechanism for rapid oxygenation of water to a high percentage, that can supply the amount required to support your hypothesis.
 
phlogistician said:
NO IT ISN'T POSSIBLE.

I have outlined the very real PHYSICAL problems for you. You must be too stupid to understand them I guess.
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Here's the answer I needed: Amphibious Fish Breathe Air and Walk Around. The ray would pick out wet caves by the sea, so that it's skin remains moist enough for it to breathe through it. Proof of concept supplied.

btw check this moving ray rainbow skin pattern: Manta Ray Tampa Bay - Can You See the Rainbow on His Skin?

Edit: I forgot to mention that a flying wing is an excellent body plan but needs slightly higher wind speeds than the long slender wings of an albatross but is more robust. Also the manta ray guiders at the front, which gather planktonic food to it's mouth, would be vestigal and be the prominent wolf-like 'ears'. The 'devil's footprints' would be most likely to be found after a full moon night with unexpectedly light winds; the flying beast having to land and make it's way home by 'foot'.
 
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common_sense_seeker said:
Here's the answer I needed: Amphibious Fish Breathe Air and Walk Around.
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Walking is NOT FLYING.

The ray would pick out wet caves by the sea, so that it's skin remains moist enough for it to breathe through it. Proof of concept supplied.
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So the ray flies around inside caves, it's a proto-bat now?

Edit: I forgot to mention that a flying wing is an excellent body plan but needs slightly higher wind speeds than the long slender wings of an albatross but is more robust.
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It's a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PROFILE, for a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PURPOSE. Ray fins are not going to produce the lift required within the energy constraints at 'slightly higher' windspeeds.

Also the manta ray guiders at the front, which gather planktonic food to it's mouth, would be vestigal and be the prominent wolf-like 'ears'. The 'devil's footprints' would be most likely to be found after a full moon night with unexpectedly light winds; the flying beast having to land and make it's way home by 'foot'.
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UTTER BULLSHIT. You aren't even amusing anymore.
 
CSS clearly likes to think of himself as an imaginative thinker in both biology and physics, given this thread is about him rewriting evolution and this custom title is about him rewriting gravity. The problem is he is only an imagiinative thinker open to new ideas if they are his ideas. Anyone else giving any reason, no matter how obvious or concrete, is ignored because CSS just knows.

And obviously anyone who doesn't think as 'imaginatively' as him just isn't as 'gifted' with an open mind as him.

CSS, you try to rewrite gravity without knowing a damn thing about it and now you're trying to rewrite biology without having a damn clue about that either. Don't you think its a little silly of you to be making claims about the metabolisms of animals when you haven't done any zoology or biochemistry or even basic anatomy?

Thinking outside the box is good. Telling the guy who built the box the box is obviously an upside down tetrahedron is just stupid.
 
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