Two dead in Oslo bombing

James R said:
...He has entered a plea of not guilty to the criminal charges, as I understand it, imagining that he will be able to get away with his acts by making some argument of necessity or justifiability.
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Or the not guilty plea was simply a way to get his say in court.
Even the most guilty of child murderers still plead not guilty, just for the chance to say "I did it to get back at the bitch who deserted me". It doesn't mean he genuinely thinks he isn't guilty of the crime... it merely indicates he wants his say.
If you're arguing that he actually thinks his country will think about his actions, realise he was right, and set him free with a medal for services rendered, then you're arguing he's clinically insane, in effect.
He doesn't come across that way to me.

What he apparently beleived was that he would make life better for everybody, including himself - except his victims, of course, who he regarded as deserving of their fate.
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Again, I haven't read this manifesto. But did he actually say they were deserving of their fate, or that their deaths were necessary?
The one is not the same as the other.

As with other mass-murderers of this type, it appears the man has no ability to put himself in the shoes of somebody else. He is the classic sociopath. This flows from his acts right through to his inability to imagine how his society would react to his acts.
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More assumption, really.
I can assure you that there are those who can put aside "humanity" for a while in order to achieve an aim. You dismiss that as a form of insanity, and such a dismissal gives you comfort; yet history is replete with those who have succeeded in their aims simply because they could do exactly that.
Some of them, to you, are now the giants of history. Some are insane tyrants.
It all depends on where your sympathy lies.

I can't really see how courage could come into his actions. It seems to me he thought he'd be lauded as some kind of hero.
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Really. So the guy charging into a machine gun to save his mates, to you, is either insane or incredibly stupid.
It doesn't seem to occur to any of you that perhaps that is exactly what he thought he was doing.

Tell me. Do you think it would have been any less brave for a soldier of the Waffen SS to charge into an American machine gun in world war 2 than it was for an American to charge into an SS machine gun? Does the word "courage" only apply to those who act in your cause?

Succeeded at what? Immeasurably damaging the cause of right-wing extremists?
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No, as I said - he got attention. Simple as that.
 
chimpkin said:
Hesperado, you've never heard that there's not a whole lot of flaming fundamentalism in Indonesia?

http://www.indonesiatravel.org.uk/culture-religion-of-indonesia.html
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I have to comment on the use of a travel website to promote the relative safety of a destination.

That aside:
And it's Islam obviously sauced with a lot of Hinduism and Buddhism. Pretty mellow.
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There are far too many who believe that the religion is the source, rather than the focus, of racism and intolerance.
Religion, or the dislike of it, is merely a convenient framework within which one finds the comfort of the like minded - whether one is on the defence or offence.

Have you ever lived in SE Asia? Or were you a tourist?
They'll take your money, and smile, and all the middle aged ladies will go home marvelling at how friendly all the people were, and look at my lovely new sarong. You're being rather naive, however, if you think that was all there ever was to it.
 
Hesperado said:
Not all indications.

1) His act of mass murder indicates mental derangement. (That does not exclude other motives.)
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I'd like to know. Do you say this because you believe it, or because you yourself are desperate to be seen as moderate in order to undo the damage you perceive him to have done?

I'm asking because you also said this:
Oh yes, I hear that and read that all the time -- every time some Muslims commit an atrocity or behave in outrageously anti-liberal ways there, every newspaper or TV news story always anxiously adds "but most Indonesians practice a tolerant form of Islam" (without ever, of course, providing proof for this claim).
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Which does seem to indicate you know the exact value of that moderate stance.

Insanity is a curious thing. I think there are as many forms of real insanity as there are neat little compartments within which we can store those methods of thought which we have no capability of understanding.
 
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The Marquis said:
There are far too many who believe that the religion is the source, rather than the focus, of racism and intolerance.
Religion, or the dislike of it, is merely a convenient framework within which one finds the comfort of the like minded - whether one is on the defence or offence.
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Given that all the major theistic religions maintain an exclusivistic doctrine with specific doctrinal tenets that state, effectively, "This religion is right and all others are less or more wrong and should be eradicated", religion is the source of intolerance, sometimes racism.
 
For some, probably. For most, it really is little more than a rallying point.
I tihnk you are misguided if you think entire cultures are motivated by religion in itself, rather than religion as a tool for establishing community.
 
The Marquis said:
For some, probably. For most, it really is little more than a rallying point.
I tihnk you are misguided if you think entire cultures are motivated by religion in itself, rather than religion as a tool for establishing community.
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I do not think that religion is just a cloak one dons on occasion.

Perhaps it starts out like that for some people, but eventually, it becomes an inextricably ingrained part of one's indentity, whether one intended that or not, whether one likes it or not, whether one practices the religious tenets fully or not.

Further, the traditional system is that of a state religion or national religion, nationalism and religiounsess being inextricably linked. Traditionally, the head of the state was also the head of the church.

(In India, for example, race and religion are often interchangeable concepts.)
 
I think I heard about this on the news. I was kinda mad though, because it took coverage time from Amy Winehouse death. I mean honestly, who cares if two Norwegians die? I'm not impressed. 40k die every day.
 
kira said:
Ok, thanks. Sometimes, in the evening, I took time to reflect. Back then in home country, I wasn't that type that have a lot of hates and angers, possibly because I have never been treated badly. Here, I have some strange experiences. .
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After that, I conclude that when I experienced bad things, it's not because of me, it's because I just meet bad people. Good people (like that manager lady) don't do bad to me, and hence they also have good life. So next time I got a lot of coins or rejected by dentist receptionist to get treatment, I will just say to myself, don't care for it, one day I am going back to home country and become a good professor there and these bad people will forever counting coins. Actually I feel cruel just to even think like that.. sigh...
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I had similar experiences in the US [being shown out of stores, bus not stopping at bus stop for me but stopping for some white person a little ahead even though I was loaded down with carrier bags and making gestures for bus to stop] - it was also the first time for me to be treated "badly" - after some thought I also realised that it was more common for me to be treated badly by people who probably felt jealous/insecure/threatened by people from a different race/background/culture. I don't know how it is in Europe - I did not stay in the UK long enough to experience the culture - but in the US they range from "easy to get along with" to "clueless and snooty" just like the Mensa members. But it takes some personal effort to override the feelings of anger that result from being treated poorly, especially if it is unexpected and you are unprepared for it. But you have to remember that they feel threatened by you - it is their weakness and hence their problem. Don't give them the power to change your personality

Western culture still very much there, say experts
 
kira said:
After that, I conclude that when I experienced bad things, it's not because of me, it's because I just meet bad people.
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They are not necessarily "bad people".
People are often under a lot of pressure and this can lead to absurd behaviors, with a characteristic lack of trust.

One sometimes has to be willing to make up for that and go the extra mile in order to get one's official and business matters settled.


S.A.M. said:
But you have to remember that they feel threatened by you
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I'm not so sure about that. Sometimes, they genuinely don't care, or they consider themselves superior to you and this is why they ignore you.
 
The Marquis said:
Again, I haven't read this manifesto. But did he actually say they were deserving of their fate, or that their deaths were necessary?
The one is not the same as the other.
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Yes.

He was culling the herd.. Reducing the number of future Labour members and discouraging membership into the party he attributed with allowing immigrants and Muslims into Norway.
 
Signal said:
They are not necessarily "bad people".
People are often under a lot of pressure and this can lead to absurd behaviors, with a characteristic lack of trust.

One sometimes has to be willing to make up for that and go the extra mile in order to get one's official and business matters settled.
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No more than any other people who change personalities when confronted by differences in race or religion or culture



I'm not so sure about that. Sometimes, they genuinely don't care, or they consider themselves superior to you and this is why they ignore you.
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Hmm...I don't expect strangers to care for me, but I definitely expect people to do their jobs. If a sales person is unpleasant and throws me out of a store or if a bus driver does not stop at the designated stop but stops mid street for some other person, I do not consider that as doing their job. I immediately felt the difference say, in Miami, where the people were much more friendly and outgoing towards me, as compared to say, Tennessee or Ohio or even New York.

It would be interesting if immigrants from all countries shared their experiences openly - most people feel constrained to be open about such treatment in what they consider their host country - so we could gauge how widespread their experiences are and if they differ by origin or education
 
Duke Whittaker said:
That's just your opinion.
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You're correct. In my opinion, you're either trolling a very serious subject to make a joke that you seem to find humorous, or you've totally missed the whole point of the thread and don't get what happened in Norway. Which, given other posts of yours, could be possible.
 
Rhaedas said:
You're correct. In my opinion, you're either trolling a very serious subject to make a joke that you seem to find humorous, or you've totally missed the whole point of the thread and don't get what happened in Norway. Which, given other posts of yours, could be possible.
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Something about a guy protesting muslims. So what? Big deal.
 
scheherazade said:
Logic may not be the best platform to endeavor to analyze the actions of this individual from, and this type of action may be most difficult to attempt to identify and prevent in future.
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Come to think of it: What exactly was this thread supposed to be about?
The OP doesn't specify any particular perspective on the topic.
 
Rhaedas said:
You're correct. In my opinion, you're either trolling a very serious subject to make a joke that you seem to find humorous, or you've totally missed the whole point of the thread and don't get what happened in Norway. Which, given other posts of yours, could be possible.
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What is even more funny is that I read similar sentiments in online comments re: the death of Amy Winehouse - for example

Yet another self indulgent rock star OD's to death. So what. This was her choice and she chose to throw her life away. Meanwhile 80 kids were massacred by a Christian fundamentalist

As if it were a competition.
 
S.A.M. said:
What is even more funny is that I read similar sentiments in online comments re: the death of Amy Winehouse - for example

Yet another self indulgent rock star OD's to death. So what. This was her choice and she chose to throw her life away. Meanwhile 80 kids were massacred by a Christian fundamentalist

As if it were a competition.
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This wouldn't have happened in America where people can have guns to defend themselves.
So in a way, it's Norway's fault.
 
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