Trump's legal woes

[James R]

Surprisingly, we don't really have a dedicated thread on this, yet. Since there's a lot more to come this year, it seems like a good time to start one.

Latest news is that Donald Trump has just been ordered by a federal jury to pay writer E. Jean Carroll a total of US$83.3 million, consisting of $18.3 million in compensatory damages and $65 million in punitive damages.

This case followed further denials from Trump, claiming he had never met Carroll and that she made up her story to boost sales of her memoir. Carroll in this trial that Trump had 'shattered' her reputation as a respected journalist who told the truth. Her attorney said that Trump had incited a 'social media mob' to attack her client and that this trial was about 'getting him to stop'.

Ms Carroll originally sued Trump in November 2019 over his denials five months earlier that he had raped her in the mid-1990s in a department store dressing room in Manhattan. In May 2023 Trump was ordered to pay Carroll $5 million for a similar denials he made in October 2022, when a jury found that Trump had defamed and sexually abused Carroll. Trump is appealing that decision.

In this latest case, the issue of whether Trump sexually assaulted Carroll was not part of the proceedings, because that issue was previously litigated and ruled on in the 2022 case. The jury there found that Trump had sexually assaulted Carroll.

Punitive damages were sought against Trump this time around on the basis that any damages awarded would have to be significant to have any chance of stopping Trump from repeating/continuing his defamatory activities against Carroll, given Trump's assumed wealth.

Trump's lawyer in this year's trial, Alina Habba, claimed that the jury's verdict in the previous trial was 'a disgrace' and 'a continuation of the greatest witch hunt of all time.' After claiming that Trump was telling the truth in the previous trial, Carroll's lawyers objected and Habba was warned by the presiding judge, Lewis A. Kaplan, that 'if you violate my instructions again, Ms Habba, you may have consequences'. Previously, without jurors in the room, the judge had threatened to send Habba to jail for continuing to talk when he told her she was finished.

Carroll's attorney, Robert Kaplan (no relation to the judge), told jurors that this case was not about a sexual assault: 'We had that case. That's why Donald Trump's testimony was so short yesterday. He doesn't get a do-over this time.' At the end of her arguments she urged jurors to support 'the principle that the rule of law stands for all of us by sending an unmistakable message to a man who 'time and time again has shown contempt for the law.'

This trial concentrated on comments made by Trump. In a January 17 campaign rally in 2019, Trump claimed that Carroll's claims were 'made-up, a fabricated story'. In a 2002 deposition, Trump derided Carroll as 'a liar and a very sick person' and called her 'a whack job'. During the 2024 proceedings, in court Trump was heard to say 'I never met the woman. I don't know who the woman is. I wasn't at the trial.' He also repeated his claim that Carroll's allegation was 'a made-up, fabricated story' and said that Judge Kaplan was a 'nasty judge'.

 

[Seattle]

That's what happened. Not much to add to it.

 

[James R]

Here's a summary of upcoming cases involving Donald Trump.

Federal January 6 case

• Relates to Trump's efforts to stay in power after his 2020 election loss to Joe Biden, and to the January 6, 2021 attack on the Capitol.
• Trump indicted on four charges: one count of conspiracy to violate rights, one count of conspiracy to defraud the government, one count of obstructing an official proceeding and one count of conspiring to do so.
• Trial date set for March 2024.

Election Inquiry in Georgia (state court)

• Relates to Trump's efforts to reverse his 2020 election loss in Georgia.
• Trump and 18 of his associates were indicted in Fulton County, Ga. in August. All face conspiracy charges related to attempts to overturn the state's results and subvert the will of voters. Three defendants have already pleaded guilty.
• 13 charges.

Classified documents case (federal court)

• Relates to Trump's retention of classified documents after he left office as President, and to his obstruction of efforts to retrieve them from him.
• In June 2023, a federal grand jury in Florida charge Trump with 37 criminal counts, including unauthorised retention of national security secrets and obstruction of efforts by the government to retrieve the files.
• One of Trump's aides, Walt Nauta, was also named in the indictment.
• On July 27, 2023, three more charges were added against Trump and charges against a third defendant, Carlos De Oliveira, a property manager at Trump's Florida residence, were unsealed.
• Trial date set for 20 May 2024.

Manhattan Criminal Case (state court)

• Relates to hush money payments Trump allegedly made to cover up a sex scandal during the 2016 presidential campaign.
• Trump was charged in April 2023 of 34 counts of falsifying Trump Organization business records related to reimbursing Michael Cohen, his lawyer, for payments made to Stormy Daniels, an adult film actress.
• Trial scheduled to begin in New York state court on 25 March 2024.

Technically, Trump has been indicted in all of these cases. Being charged means that a prosecutor has accused somebody of committing an offence. An indictment, on the other hand, means that a grand jury, set up by a prosecutor to test whether there is sufficient evidence to bring a prosecution, has determined that there is probable cause that somebody has committed a crime.

All up, Trump is facing 91 separate charges.

 

[billvon]

Here's a summary of upcoming cases involving Donald Trump.

Yep. As you mentioned he's facing 91 felony charges. Even if he wins 99% of those cases, he's still a felon. His only hope for remaining out of jail is to delay all the trials until he becomes president, then use his position to nullify the charges. So far he's been fairly successful with that angle.

 

[Seattle]

He wouldn't be able to get rid of all of them but he would avoid prison for 4 years. After that it would probably be tied up in the courts until he died (given his age). He can't do anything about the state cases either.

He isn't going to be out of the daily news cycle until he is no longer with us. Whether anyone will actually be able to put an ex-President in prison is another matter.

With all the Federal charges against him and the the conviction rate in Federal courts (high 90% range), he is bound to be convicted of a Federal charge that would put him in prison for the rest of his life. Whether that will actually happen given the unique circumstances is questionable but unknown.

 

[Sarkus]

He's also waiting the verdict on his fraud trial, with New York AG seeking $370m in disgorgement (i.e. repayment of benefits from his fraudulent activities), which would also see 9% p.a. interest on top, taking the possible bill to £0.5bn. This would be on top of his lifetime ban on doing any business in New York state, requiring the sale of his key assets such as Trump Tower etc.
The judge (Engoron) may not go that far, and may not award the full $370m (+ interest), but it's likely to be a substantial penalty. His decision (no jury - just the judge) is expected this week, I think, as he previously said he would try to do so by Jan 31. Bear in mind, he found Trump guilty of the persistant fraud in a pre-trial decision, so the trial was just to determine the punishment. Not that Trump nor his lawyers seemed to understand that.

The one that's probably the most concerning for me would be the classified documents case, as the judge in that case is Aileen Cannon, who was appointed by Trump to the bench in 2020. So there's already a question of impartiality, but it has also been borne out through her efforts to delay the proceedings. It is thought by some commentators that she is pushing the border of incompetency, and that this trial puts her well out of her depth simply from her lack of knowledge of how things should proceed. It may, depending on how many odd-ball decisions she makes, see her removed, but that is unlikely. But for now she seems to be doing everything she can to sabotage the trial from ever taking place, and if it does then delay delay delay. It's still scheduled for May this year, but things are likely to push it later, such as Cannon not really knowing the order of when things need to be filed, and how much time needs to be given, etc. Whether prosecutor Jack Smith will regret not trying to get Cannon recused early doors, time will tell.

 

[Tiassa]

Details Matter

It is worth observing that Donald Trump did attempt to intimidate Judge Engoron, yesterday:

Why didn't Judge Engoron announce his decision after we proved conclusively that I DID NOTHING WRONG!!! NO JURY ALLOWED, Great Financial Statements (which were very conservative, the opposite of the charge!), No Victims, No Fraud, No Crimes, Happy Banks and Insurance Companies, only success and profits ― And a corrupt N.Y.S. Attorney General, who sat comfortably and onfidently in court with her shoes off, arms folded, a Starbucks Coffee, and a BIG smile on her face... JUST LIKE SHE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT THE DECISION WILL BE! The closing argument of the State was pathetic, NO WITNESSES AND NO EVIDENCE AGAINST ME! Legal Scholars are "killing" the A.G. Case. "It's a Witch Hunt!" The Judge is being badly influenced and the Gag Order must come off! REMEMBER,THIS JUDGE RULED AGAINST ME BEFORE THE TRIAL EVEN STARTED, AND HE KNEW NOTHING ABOUT THE CASE. The public is angry over this HOAX. This trial is RIGGED!

Spoiler

The background, here, is that Engoron has advised that he will be issuing a ruling in the New York civil fraud case against the Trump Organization. Donald Trump responded by mischaracterizing law, court, and process, accusing the judge of corruption, and warning Engoron in re his forthcoming decision, expected Wednesday.

The detail is important; while Trump, like many defendants, claims the process is rigged, his supporters tend to disdain the details, preferring what his presidential administration described as "alternative facts", instead.

For instance, here is an interesting detail about Donald Trump's legal woes: Shortly before the $83 million verdict, attorney Joe Tacopina withdrew from the case and, apparently, Trump's legal team. While the details of why Tacopina left do matter, and maybe someday he will tell us more particularly, it's also worth noting that Tacopina was originally brought in to replace Alina Habba for the Carroll trial.

Not only did Habba represent Trump in the first Carroll trial, she also earned two sanctions from another court for a filing a frivolous lawsuit against Hillary Clinton and the U.S. Department of Justice. Inasmuch as a former U.S. Attorney↗ finds it shocking that a former President of the United States should have such poor legal representation, it's true, there is a record, and calling the state of things shocking isn't nearly as judgmental as some might presume; historical analysis of the period will have a lot of questions about how things came to be this way.

Meanwhile, though, consider Trump's block-capped accusation, "NO JURY ALLOWED", because a bench trial—i.e., trial without jury—is what Donald Trump chose. And it's true, people wondered about it at the time; and it was easy enough to predict a later Trump complaint about not having a jury. But, if we want to check the point of what Donald Trump chose, it is true, Alina Habba is the attorney who filed that paperwork for him.

So, sometime down the road, when Trump supporters blame Habba and claim the former president has been injured by poor counsel, remember also that Trump keeps her around, and compared to other attorneys, she stays. That record will actually diminish any chance he has of appealing these particular circumstances.

It's one of the curiousities about people's behavior in Trump's proximity, when what is otherwise unbelievable becomes the obvious explanation. The prospect of "techncialities" as a legal strategy ought to be absurd in and of itself, but the fact that we might reasonably wonder about the idea of a manufactured technicality just shouldn't really be viable.

Still, Habba's representation could represent over $450 million in losses for Trump. And, if we want to discuss technicalities, yes, Trump's warning of Engoron in advance of his decision can, technically speaking, be characterized as an attempt to intimidate a public official.

Compared to Donald Trump's record of turning against, disowning, and denouncing allies he finds unsatisfactory, it would probably be stranger than anything else if he keeps Habba close, throughout.

But that's the thing about manufactured technicalities; at some point, if Trump thinks he can somehow overcome the judgments against him, his only path runs through Habba. The idea that her poor counsel motivated his decisions, including his inappropriate coutroom and public behviors, will become his only apparent lifeline.

Under any other circumstance, it would be so unlikely as to be dangerous. The idea of calculating and establishing this pathway really is ridiculous.

Flip-side: It's Donald Trump. When he turns agains Habba, it is inevitable that he will challenge her competence as a lawyer; it's part of the standard attack.

Sure, it's unbelievable, but truth is stranger than fiction, and this is Donald Trump.

And details matter, especially when they are extraordinary.

 

[billvon]

Latest legal woes for the Trump team -

Seems like Trump activists at the right wing news website OAN sent an email to Trump's legal team along with the passwords from Smartmatic employees. Such passwords could be used, of course, to compromise the election. Sidney Powell, who received it, did not inform the authorities of this violation of privacy and election laws. What did she do with the logins? What was done with them at OAN? Looks like there will be a new investigation kicked off pretty soon, and Trump might hit the triple digits in felony indictments before the election.

 

[Seattle]

I suppose 2028 will be Elizabeth Warren vs Ron DeSantis or maybe elections will be cancelled by then and no one will notice or care?(illustrious exaggeration....)

 

[Sarkus]

He's also about to get a subpoena regarding his $7-8m enrichment by foreign powers (mostly China) while in office.

And relating to his civil woes, the Monitor who the judge put in place to oversee his New York businesses has identified some oddities around some loans that may result in further legal issues, as it appears to be for tax evasion.
But because it's Donald Trump it's clearly just a witch hunt.

 

[Pinball1970]

But because it's Donald Trump it's clearly just a witch hunt.

Election is November. If he is found guilty of a couple of charges that are worthy of prison time, that will happen yes?

No doubt he will appeal and appeal to burn up time but that should not affect the result?

Or is there a rule about sticking an incumbent in jail if they have been found guilty of a crime that warrants prison?

 

[Sarkus]

Or is there a rule about sticking an incumbent in jail if they have been found guilty of a crime that warrants prison?

He could pardon himself from some of them (Federal) but not all, I think (i.e. not State crimes)? If he is sentenced to prison prior to the election then I'm sure he would be incarcerated, and have to continue to "campaign" from inside. If he's inside and he happens to win in November then I think consensus is that his sentence would be put on hold for the duration of his term in office, and then back to jail he'd go - assuming he didn't come up with some way to overturn the verdicts in the meantime, which I think he is likely to do, no matter how unpalatable the means might be.
As far as appealing any verdict, I'm not sure any prison sentence would be deferred until after the appeal, so it wouldn't delay things in that regard.

 

[gmilam]

Hopefully the Supreme Court will rule that the 14th amendment disqualifies him from holding office.

 

[candy]

Trump's biggest legal problem is that he cannot keep his motor mouth shut.

 

[Pinball1970]

He could pardon himself from some of them (Federal) but not all, I think (i.e. not State crimes)? If he is sentenced to prison prior to the election then I'm sure he would be incarcerated, and have to continue to "campaign" from inside. If he's inside and he happens to win in November then I think consensus is that his sentence would be put on hold for the duration of his term in office, and then back to jail he'd go - assuming he didn't come up with some way to overturn the verdicts in the meantime, which I think he is likely to do, no matter how unpalatable the means might be.
As far as appealing any verdict, I'm not sure any prison sentence would be deferred until after the appeal, so it wouldn't delay things in that regard.

Man that is nuts.
Our health minister was caught kissing his mistress on CCTV during COVID 19.
He had to resign because he had broken COVID rules, not part of his household.

Also there was a horrible hypocrisy involved. A senior minister telling us how how to behave for the good of the country then doing the opposite.
He also cheated on wife.

Personally? I fine would have been ok because he broke one key law.
Apologize to us, the UK, then do your job.

 

[billvon]

Or is there a rule about sticking an incumbent in jail if they have been found guilty of a crime that warrants prison?

Keep in mind that he has said he would be a "dictator for a day" to get things done. He's even said that he should have the right as president to use Seal Team Six to assassinate a political opponent if he wanted to. If that's the case, then calling up the miltary to keep him out of jail would be a no brainer. They could then simply kill anyone who came to arrest him.

 

[DaveC426913]

Trump's biggest legal problem is that he cannot keep his motor mouth shut.

So far, he has yet to actually suffer any consequences.

I feel like the last eight years have just been one long comedy sketch of Lady Justice saying "Look, you are already in soooo much trouble, and you're just making it worse. You're already grounded for 78 weeks; you want to make it 79?"

 

[Sarkus]

So far, he has yet to actually suffer any consequences.

He's just suffered $83m of damages for not being able to keep his mouth shut, and may incur more at a later date if he continues. Admittedly a civil reckoning rather than criminal, though.

I feel like the last eight years have just been one long comedy sketch of Lady Justice saying "Look, you are already in soooo much trouble, and you're just making it worse. You're already grounded for 78 weeks; you want to make it 79?"

The punchline will be played out in November. Either he'll be voted in again (assuming he gainst the Rep nomination) and somehow escape justice for all but the civil suits, or he'll find himself in prison. Given what seems to be increasing mental deterioration played out in front of his audiences, though, presumably as a result of the stress of all the trials, there's a chance he might not even make it to November, which given his jibes about Biden would be ironic.

 

[DaveC426913]

He's just suffered $83m of damages for not being able to keep his mouth shut, and may incur more at a later date if he continues. Admittedly a civil reckoning rather than criminal, though.

Hasn't actually paid it yet. He might never. So far, all his punishment is on paper.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Hasn't actually paid it yet. He might never. So far, all his punishment is on paper.

He ant paid the 83.3M yet... but by just havin to keep his mouth shut about her (so far) for the past few days... he prolly feels like hes alredy lost 100M