Trans vs feminists: Are Trans women women?

[iceaura]

Well then who ever your speaking of it not whom I speaking off,

You posted the description, not me.
This one:

Anyone that advocates for sex, gender, race over economics has doomed us all.

Mostly rightwingers, in that crowd.

I've been over this with you, we had a president for 8 years that proclaimed the wage gap between men and women over the wage gape between rich and poor, and a liberal media that whined about "manspreading" more then homelessness.

That's irrelevant to your claims, on top of being ridiculously false, on top of being standard wingnut memes you once again parrot from your silly videos.
You can't learn history from wingnut videos. They are not honest, not accurate. You end up talking about the "liberal media" - and once you've drunk that koolaid, no little red pill will be enough.

Their inability to focus on the issues that unify us, and instead focus on issues that divide us, destroyed the democratic party and gave the election to a pig boar.

Divide who? Destroyed what?
Same basic thing happened in 1968, 1972, 1980, 1984, 2000, and 2004, with the Presidency. With Congress it built over time (turnover is slower) locking in around 1992, and more or less consolidating, generally, since.

And this bypasses the issue, which is the trans/feminist conflict - which is not a leftist issue, or a divisive one, any more than gay marriage.

 

[Bells]

Transexuals I feel sorry for because they do indeed suffer from gender dysphoria and go about all the rigorous work to reach the appearance of being a woman and many of them readily admit to being biological males even after they fully transition. Many transexuals also don't believe its their job to force all of society to alter itself to validate them, this thread isn't about them. I'm focusing on what's become of this amorphous term "transgender" and the trans activists who purport transgender theory, they are the ones who are at war with feminism, obscuring terms while creating new ones obliterating what it means to be a woman and twisting women's rights and women's issues.

What does it mean to be "a woman"?

Because your posts seem to be quite contradictory.

For example:

Feminism rejected the idea of gender, working towards a world without gender as in masculine and feminine stereotypes society deemed innate to women but they never denied the biological reality of women because that's what they believed created the hierarchy, women risked pregnancy while males remained free and independent.

So, what does it mean to be "a woman"?

It's interesting, because you object to transgender women defining "women":

Transgender activists reinforce those notions, being a woman is about the hair, the tits and vagina.

But in a way, you interpret feminism as being about the vagina when you argue about women risking pregnancy and mention the likes of Greer..

Another interesting point:

I mean its fucking hilarious. Feminism is being stabbed in the back by transgender theory and their obscuration of terms. A man with a penis can declare a woman a woman hater just by co-opting the term for himself. They don't have to have a history of being a woman, they just have to declare themselves to be one.

How does one have a history of being a woman, if being a woman when:

Feminism rejected the idea of gender, working towards a world without gender as in masculine and feminine stereotypes society deemed innate to women

I mean, as a woman and an avid feminist, I am curious.

If we were to take this argument seriously, shouldn't feminists be embracing transgender women? Since they are rejecting the idea of gender, shouldn't transgender women be widely lauded by feminists? Shouldn't their rights be fought by feminists who reject the very idea of "gender" and instead, embrace the sense of self and self identity and rights?

Or are those feminists pissed off because their "safe space" is being invaded by transgender women and for some obscure reason, being a woman is really about hair, tits and their vagina, which those feminists rely on to use the women's bathrooms and safe spaces to begin with, because that is what is used to identify them as "women".. Ironic, no?

Do you know who are actually invading women's safe spaces? Men who are intent on making sure we have the hair, tits and a vagina to use them. Women are being accosted by men, because they don't fit the stereotype of what men,

Because I don't know about you, but when I use a women's public bathroom, I don't check under each door to the stalls to make sure the women using them have a vagina.

Now, how does one have a history of being a woman?

Or do you mean "female"? Because your argument would reject any female under the age of 'adulthood' when she could be described as a "woman"?

Or are you commenting on the history of misogyny that women have faced for a multitude of generations? Because if that's the case, I'm pretty certain transgender have a fair case to make in regards to discrimination and hatred, not to mention domination and exclusion.

Feminist Germaine Greer still pummelled for ‘misogynistic views toward transwomen’https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ews-toward-transwomen/?utm_term=.f0260d022e4b

How did the Washington Post capitulate to using such a crazy headline? Gemaine Greer of all people 'misogynistic' for not accepting trans women as real women.

You're kidding, right?

Germaine Greer once said that transgender women essentially cannot be women because they do not know what it's like "to have a big, hairy, smelly vagina”... And you were lamenting that transgender women are all about the hair, tits and vagina?

Irony.

Greer has made her brand of feminism all about the tits and the vagina (when she is not dreaming about pre-pubescent boys and their semen that runs like water, that is). One of her most vocal arguments against transgender women is that "they do not look like, sound like or behave like women".. Which again, contradicts what you seem to believe feminism are arguing about women and what feminists entails. To wit, Greer has made the whole issue of "the woman" all about her looks, what she sounds like and how she behaves.. Which is stereotyping women to fit into this little boxes, in regards to her looks, how she behaves and even her voice. If anything, Greer sets the women's rights movement and feminism back to the stone age. She whines about men, but her views on women stems directly from how men view and treat women. If we do not look a certain way, sound a certain way or behave a certain way, then really, what hope is there for us as women?

So I'll ask again.. What does it mean to be a "woman"?

Or are you going to bend over and look at what's between our legs to make that determination because it's all about the hair, tits and vagina...?

Again, irony..

 

[kx000]

as they put it your genitals don't determine your gender and they deny biological sex as being relevant at all. Actually they deny its existence, anywho...

Satanic. This is unfair to a lot of people.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Bells,

What does it mean to be a women? because it seems these camps of radical feminist, "funfeminist" and trans-activities, seems to have very different ideas on what it means to be a women, hence the core of their dilemma. If say you have a "safe space" for women, who exactly do you let in?

Personally I don't see value in identifying as a women, or a man, or a what ever, it think it is narcissistic and tribal and only breeds division, we should strive to move away from that primitive thinking. Here is a pep speech about that by someone that sounds like what kitten being petted by angels sound like:

 

[Tiassa]

Culture historian and feminist Camille Paglia said in an interview "It is certainly ironic how liberals who posture as defenders of science when it comes to global warming (a sentimental myth unsupported by evidence) flee all reference to biology when it comes to gender. Biology has been programmatically excluded from women's studies and gender studies programs for almost 50 years now. Thus very few current gender studies professors and theorists, here and abroad, are intellectually or scientifically prepared to teach their subjects.The cold biological truth is that sex changes are impossible. Every single cell of the human body remains coded with one's birth gender for life. Intersex ambiguities can occur, but they are developmental anomalies that represent a tiny proportion of all human births."

I'm inclined to agree with her.

I would note that after decades of feminists and liberals alike trying to establish that gender is a social construct it just seems strange that Paglia should demand "reference to biology when it comes to gender". Then again, it's almost as if we're trying to fold radical feminism into mainstream discourse, and it seems very strange in this context, too, that we should do so, as if, hey, someone thinks they can license cruelty with radical feminism, so it finally has some use to people who otherwise generally reject either radicalism, feminism, both, or their nexus.

We might also note that if nature didn't provide its own examples, the proposition of sex defined chromosomally within a binary framework would not seem so much like a social construct.

When a man picks up a woman, fucks her, beats her, and then runs over her repeatedly with his truck in an alley, who among us is willing to assert he would have done that to another man?

Well, Mrs.Lucysnow; that's who. At least, that's a symptom of the argument you've posted.

Who among us imagines the man who does that is saying, "Yeah, that's right, dude! Take that, dude!" Even if he wants to use male terminology, he will feminize her.

So, yeah, you know, some guy using certain words while banging me in the ass is pretty damn privileged, misogynistic, and stupid.

But what if he's raping and beating our trans sister to death because that's just what a bitch like her is for?

Your insistence on words is a matter of aesthetics. What's going on in the world is a matter of reality. Only one of those is under your control, but even then there are limits by which it is subordinate to the other.

That's like arguing because a human being normally has two legs, the moment a person loses both legs they stop being human.

And if someone deliberately and without cause went on to kill that person, would we not charge them with murder? If someone sexually harasses or rapes a transgender female is society more likely to reject and prosecute the crime because of male privilege?

There seems to be a reason you don't want to look at what actually goes on in people's lives; it makes it easier for you license, in your own mind, your intended cruelty.

• • •​

Personally I don't see value in identifying as a women, or a man, or a what ever, it think it is narcissistic and tribal and only breeds division, we should strive to move away from that primitive thinking.

Aesthetically and within the context of your own emotionalism, sure, that is what it is.

However, you would probably be more effective toward affecting the foundations of sex and gender identity if you addressed those foundations instead of attacking people with your ignorance.

 

[ElectricFetus]

However, you would probably be more effective toward affecting the foundations of sex and gender identity if you addressed those foundations instead of attacking people with your ignorance.

Oh I am ignorant, that is why I'm asking what you (Bells) defines that foundation as, please inform me, educate me.

 

[spidergoat]

This is all happening in a climate when every 'identity' group is out carving 'safe spaces' for themselves so I find it amusing but not surprising that its female spaces that are now being forced to open themselves up to other groups.

Private groups can't be forced to accept anyone they don't want. This is just as true for churches and knitting circles as for feminist summer camps. Anyway, this seems like a small sub-culture and I doubt their views have much influence on mainstream thought.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

No.

No.

Sure. Just not public bathrooms - which (note the name) are for use by the PUBLIC. That means you have to be OK with other people using them if you want to use them. By definition.

Yes. Many women with AIS are genetically male; women have been "forced to accept men who say they are women" into women's bathrooms for centuries. There are tens of thousands of AIS women in the US, so chances are you have been "forced to accept men who say they are women" in your bathroom; I assume this has not led to any trauma on your part.

(Of course that's just one of the 'traumas' that sensitive conservative snowflakes have to live with. Nowadays white women have to accept black women using public bathrooms - o the horror! And sometimes they even have to accept men using them - women will often take male toddlers into women's bathrooms to change diapers. Hopefully the most sensitive of the conservative snowflakes will not succumb to the vapors as a result.)

I disagree, so do many leading feminists which is why its described as "one of the most bitter and acrimonious battles on the left" but that wouldn't make sense of course unless your clued in enough to even know that this debate is even being had by women and the transgender community.

Wait a minute, this has nothing to do with wether a bathroom is pubic or not. We have separate facilities for a reason and when if it were merely all 'public' then there would be no need for a bathroom policy because men would be zero public facilities designated by sex, we'd have boys and girls sharing the same changing rooms in High Schools etc.

Yes we all know that transsexuals have been using bathrooms before their was ever a push for a LEGISLATIVE bathroom push. So why is there a legislative push to make a bathroom bill? My point is that its being politicized and that has consequences.

When a transgender woman Paula Witherspoon a convicted of raping a 14 yr old and a 15 year old used the restroom in a hospital in Dallas she wasn't doing anything but she freaked out another woman enough to complain about his presence. He had served 20 years for the crime and had 'become a woman' but now he has access to women's locker rooms and bathrooms everywhere simply because he says so. Just like Masbruch who was in prison for rape and torture of women but he decided he was a woman, was moved to the female population even though he hadn't undergonoe reassignment surgery.

"Richard Masbruch brutally raped and tortured a Fresno woman in 1991. Today, in a case that may be the first of its kind, he lives in a women’s prison. While imprisoned in Texas on theft charges between 1991 and 2005, Masbruch — for reasons that are unclear — made several attempts to castrate himself (unsuccessfully). During the next 2 1/2 years, Masbruch received hormonal treatment but did not undergo sex-reassignment surgery, Craig Masbruch said.“He’s not actually 100% female,” he said. “I guess you could say he’s 90%.” Masbruch, who was reclassified by prison officials as a woman after he castrated himself, is the focus of an inmate complaint that says Masbruch is a danger to other prisoners at the Central California Women’s Facility in Chowchilla". http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-331532

Or

In Australia Maddison Hall, aka Noel Crompton Hall, shot and killed Lyn Saunders. Sentenced to 22 years, Hall began dressing as a woman in jail and self-harming, complaining that he was a woman trapped in a man’s body. Maddison Hall claimed he belonged in a female jail, and was moved to the an all-woman maximum security prison, where he gained a reputation as a sexual predator and was charged with raping his cellmate. Returned to a man’s jail, Hall sued the NSW Department of Corrective Services, claiming psychological trauma and won a $25,000 out-of-court settlement, which funded his full sex change surgery in 2003.


Why is it a predator of women can go to prison as a male, declare himself a woman, get HRT but not sexual reassignment and in then is by law allowed into a woman's prison population? Again I don't hear about this happening from female to male only male to female.

A list of some men who committed acts of violence against women and children only to declare themselves women in prison which allows them access to women and children

Jonathan Adrian Wolf; Johanna
Paul Ray Witherspoon; Paula
David Megarry Jr.; Sandy Jo Battista
Ronny Edward Darnell; Phoebe Halliwell
Luke Voyce; Laura
Richard Masbruch; Sherri
Noel Crompton; Maddison Hall
Dana McCallum
Geoffrey Ian Websdale; Michelle
Paul Denyer
Davina Ayrton
Vance Egglestone; Shauna Taylor
Wolfgang Schmidt; Beate
Randall Donald Rye; Susan Rye
Sean Paul Gossman
William Carl Olsen
John D. Babcock; Sarah Babcock
Jason LaPre; Catarina LaPre
Bryan Woodall; Misty LaCroix
Matthew Ralf Harks; Madilyn Rebecca Harks
Raymond Crawford-Tand; Rockelle Deadbeauney
David Scott Teeter; Heather Teeter
Jacobus Van Nierop
James Dillbeck
Lewis Stevens; Lennea Elizabeth Stevens
Jeffrey Willsea; Xena M. Grandichelli
Walter Miller
Jerry Brudos


Should they be allowed in shelters for women of domestic violence and rape, female designated bathrooms and dressing rooms? By law yes which is why Paula Witherspoon has access to places where young women can be found.

The question being raised by feminists are mostly focused on how we are framing the idea of what a woman is. If you say trans women are really women, like actual biological women they you allow a voice that has never actually had a woman's experience. It undermines feminist theory and it undermines the meaning of a woman's experience that is embedded in her physical being (pregnancy and child rearing, menstruation, menopause, etc), feminism the kind that brought women's rights to the forefront has never been outside of the physical reality of what it means to be female. Now you're saying that trans women, can have access to all of that, they want to change the feminist lexicon of what it means to be a woman so it can include them and that's a problem.​

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Radical leftist eat each other, what a surprise These "philosophies" have failed us so badly as to give us president trump so please fight each other to the death.

The idea was simple: tax the rich (who are usually white, straight, cis male) and provide services for the poor (who are disproportionately not white, straight, cis and male) but as it turns out many of on the left that had "megaphones" (money) were also not white, straight, cis males, and did not want to pay their share, so they diverted the issue, blame the white, straight, cis males, forget about the money. This has created a cult within modern leftism which has destroyed us politically, its only saving grace is that the "reactionary" counter movement it has spawned on the right which has taken over the goverment, appears to be utterly incompetent at actually ruling, but with years left of republican/alt-right domination I doubt they won't get something horrible done.


As members of the Hands Across the Aisle Coalition, these unlikely allies have banded together to combat the increasingly anti-woman positions adopted by the transgender movement.

The event, which focused on the impact of laws and policies that privilege “gender identity” over biological sex, was hosted by Ryan T. Anderson, the Heritage Foundation’s William E. Simon senior research fellow.


Leading off the panel was Kaeley Triller Haver, whose past as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse drives her current work fighting to protect the safety and privacy of women and girls. She first encountered the push to allow men in women’s restrooms while on staff at her local YMCA.

As part of her job duties, she conducted regular sex offender screenings, and the results were disturbing, as she recounted:


"Every single time that I would run one of these screenings, I would find somebody who’d infiltrated the system, because that’s what predators do—they prey, and they seek opportunity. And I recognized that this new policy that they were asking us to embrace and adopt was basically the equivalent of rolling out a welcome mat for any man who decided that he wanted to come in and access our spaces."

Haver recognized the transgender activists’ strategy of accusing those who oppose their agenda of being close-minded and unloving. Her abuser had used similar tactics to persuade her to compromise her personal boundaries, she said.


Emily Zinos, a mother of seven, was unable to attend the event, but her comments were read in her absence. Zinos faced this issue in one of her children’s schools. As part of the Ask Me First campaign, she advocates safety and privacy for all students.

She wrote:

"What worries me most is that schools across the country are quashing debate, abandoning academic pursuits, and reducing themselves to pawns in a political movement whose claims are highly questionable, unscientific, and have been shown to harm children. Public schools have a duty to serve all children, but schools cannot serve children and a totalitarian ideology all at once."

Miriam Ben-Shalom, a longtime gay rights activist and the first lesbian U.S. service member to be reinstated after being discharged from the military under “don’t ask, don’t tell,” spoke next. She asked conservatives to differentiate between the gay and lesbian community and transgender activists, whose agenda is more about infringing women’s rights and safety than protecting those of transgender citizens.

--- http://dailysignal.com/2017/03/03/f...s-link-arms-to-confront-transgender-ideology/

She said:


It’s not about bathrooms. It is about bathrooms, locker rooms, women’s shelters, women’s jails, and women’s spaces, and the real issue here is male violence. That’s what it is, and that’s what we’re talking about here. If trans women were really women, they would understand that the issue is male violence and they would sit down with us and civilly work together to find an acceptable solution to this problem.

Tiassa scream misogyny at the drop of a hat, but I wonder if tiassa would scream misandry if I said that men are disproportionately prone to physical violence, probably at an innate biological level. Now I'm not saying all men, just on average. What is the solution? Is it as some feminist have suggest of rounding all men up and segregating them to somewhere until they can "act like human beings" again? Even people with down syndrome, with a known and proven, absolute, genetic disorder, we NOT round up and do away with as untermensch, but instead provide special services and protections for to try to help them be productive and happy members of society. Likewise special services should be provided to boys to help reduce the rate of male violence and improve the outcome of men becoming productive and happy members of society, instead of prison convicts.

Sexual predators should be found and provided treatment, castration, chemical castration, deep brain simulators, etc. Yes some sexual predators are women and yes treatments must be found for them as well, but I theorize most sexual predators are men who at a fundamental level can't deal with the sexual urges that are inflamed by testosterone, remove the testosterone should greatly reduce the rate of sexual predation. This won't solve all sexual predators, but it will solve much of it.

When radical feminists and right wing conservatives begin to agree on things related to 'womanhood', well, I hear its might cold in hell these days. You get it. Why is it that liberals are not getting this? And you're right its as if they have suddenly turned on feminists as people with power trying to harm those poor men who have no power, that's why I get quotes coming back at me about race and disenfranchisement as if its somehow all comparable. ITS FUCKING INSANE! So now a white or black woman is seen as having MORE POWER than those poor disenfranchised males who want nothing more than to shirk their 'privilege' and join the ranks of women to which they belong. LOL! It would just be funny if it weren't so scary.

Here's something else we don't like to talk about but probably belongs in another thread. There are many young gay and lesbian teens who are having trouble accepting their bodies and suffering confusion with their sexuality who are being told that its not because they are a butch female or an effeminate male but because they are transgender and these people WHO ARE NOW DE-TRANSITIONING are starting to talk about the tyranny of transgender theory.

This woman has a blog started a group for de-transitioning women, she's quite interesting I would recommend people listen to her story as it has HUGE ramifications and is completely at odds with this notion that transgenderism is something fixed at birth or that you can actually know who is really transgender and who is not early in life.

 

[spidergoat]

It undermines feminist theory and it undermines the meaning of a woman's experience that is embedded in her physical being (pregnancy and child rearing, menstruation, menopause, etc)

That's only part of it. Many women never experience those things and they are still women. I can tell you one thing, your talking points don't undermine the political effort to obtain liberty for all kinds of women.

I would recommend people listen to her story as it has HUGE ramifications and is completely at odds with this notion that transgenderism is something fixed at birth

No one says it's the same for everyone, only that people should be given the freedom to be the gender they feel themselves to be, or none.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

You plan to get lots of useful criticism of how other people handle science from a CO2 threat denier?

About the same as the number of people in wheelchairs.

It's a serious matter no doubt - but mostly, it seems, because this culture (unlike others, such as the Navajo of Hosteen Klah) demands that one of two sexes be assigned, with actual physical consequences impossible to compromise (you're either in a room, or you are not, say). It's an arbitrary imposition on the world, and any sensible theory is going to have trouble with it.

Germiane Greer thinks that telling little girls to kiss their father goodnight is forced sexual domination but I don't throw out everything she says because of it. Camille Paglia is an intellectual powerhouse, she's entitled to her opinions on climate change and I don't have to agree with her on everything she says. I don't buy into all feminist theory but I don't dismiss it either. What does this have to do with people in wheelchairs? As billvon pointed out there have always been transsexuals using women's bathrooms so why are we legislating it? All you have to do is self-identify as transgender, meaning you don't have to have had reassignment surgery, you could be on HRT and never decide to get bottom surgery and still have access to women's locker rooms and bathrooms. That's the problem. The problem isn't and has never been about men and women who have had reassignment surgery and lives as a man or woman which brings me to my next point. If a woman looks like a woman and goes into a woman's bathroom do you think there would be a problem? No. The problem is that you don't have to do that, all you have to do is say "I'm a woman" because that's how trans theory frames it, you self identify and by that declaration you are that because they discount biological sex, its very very convenient. There is a large percentage of people who call themselves transgender who NEVER get reassignment surgery, check the stats and you'll see that they're actually quite low and that's why trans activists have been pushing for this bill, not to protect trans women who look like women but to protect trans women who don't.

Yeah but the problem isn't how culture looks on reassignment, the problem is how we look at gender. The question is this

Is a little boy in a dress playing with dolls a little boy wearing a dress and playing with dolls or a little girl? The answer is important because all of trans theory depends on it. Feminist theory posits that a little boy in a dress playing with dolls is a male and we would say "That's okay", let him play with dolls and wear dresses if he wants to because 'gender' is a construct NOT sex but gender and so wearing a dress and playing with dolls doesn't make him a girl. Notice we don't tell little girls who are tomboys that they are in fact boys because they like to wear boy things and play boy games yet it somehow falls apart when we look at little boys. If a boy wearing a dress and playing with dolls is a girl, then we have completely taken gender back to a pre-feminist theory place because we are saying that gender overrides biological sex. Its like saying you're a girl BECAUSE you wear a dress and play with dolls. Get it now? Remember when little boys were called sissy for doing girly things? Well we are now reinforcing this idea. Yes Virginia you are an actual little girl because you like girly things! THAT is trans theory. You can imagine how this will impact the gay and lesbian community using this framework.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Mrs.Lucysnow,

I'm listening to those videos, fucking awesome, and the comment sections are a joy to read!

LOL!

 

[spidergoat]

LOL!

Two peas in a transphobic pod.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

So because it doesn't affect enough people, it isn't real or important? When would it be enough? A few million? A few Tena of millions? Maybe when it's your child suffering from a rare and barely understood disorder or disease, then you'd care?

No. Remember this is not about whether people should be about wearing dresses or whether they should be allowed to take hormones or have surgery, I have no problem with that and the feminists I cite don't have any problem with that. Its the legislation of what a woman is! These laws claim that ANY MAN CAN SIMPLY DECLARE HIMSELF A WOMAN AND THEN BE CONSIDERED A WOMAN BY LAW! This affects everything. If I had a child with dysphoria I would let them play with whatever they like and wear whatever they like within reason but I would not start telling them that they are not biologically male or female. I would tell them that they are allowed to express their masculinity or femininity and that's okay. I wouldn't rush to the hospital to give them drugs to stop puberty, they can choose to do so as an adult if they so wish. The whole debate about child hormone therapy is an interesting one and deserves its own thread because its its own rabbit hole.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Two peas in a transphobic pod.

And yet I am not transphobic neither are these two trans women WHO ACTUALLY AGREE WITH THE POINTS I AM MAKING!! Unless of course they are self-hating transphobes LOL! What a lame argument! If you critique any ideology, if you ask questions, if you set limits then you are a transphobic. Great! That's a great way to silence everyone isn't it? You don't have to have an argument you just have to call them names, shame them into silence right? Do you mind because now its time to call yo an idiot. I mean all slurs being equal and everything. Rya is a transsexual woman and Miranda Yeardly is a transsexual woman who is also an activist and theorist

From Miranda Yeardly's website

"As someone who is self-critical, my views evolve and I now disavow use of the word ‘woman’ for myself and other transgender males, preferring to use the term ‘transsexual’ or ‘transsexual male’.
It is not possible to change sex, and even with cosmetic changes the central defining feature to one being female, that of a female reproductive system, is out of the reach of every male; note what I’m saying is that reproductive class is what is central to being a woman, not that what it is to being a woman is limited to one’s reproductive system. I do not consider that males socialised as males can become a socially constructed ‘woman’. I have spoken about this many times, usually in the context of ‘trans women are not women‘. I still consider the cultural aspects of womanhood that transgender males take on are limited to ‘thin’ cultural aspects, superficial traits like clothes, presentation and aesthetics as opposed to ‘thick’ cultural aspects, for example how a society dominated by men sees, treats and ultimately created what a ‘woman’ is; obliquely I am of course referring to de Beauvoir’s work ‘The Second Sex’. As an example of how the thick cultural aspects are missed and the transgender male’s view of womanhood then based on thin cultural aspects, I deconstructed a piece by transgender activist Juno Roche wherein the author looks at the societal invisibility of themselves as an older ‘trans women’ and completely misses the point..."http://mirandayardley.com/en/why-i-disavow-woman-and-am-no-longer-gender-critical/

I find it typical of liberals to pretend that all 'protected groups' succumb to group think and that there aren't rigorous debates going on in those communities. So you call me a transphobe for even questioning trans theory because I'm not trans, when trans people themselves are not only forwarding the same concerns but also they are also being No Platformed by supposed 'liberals' who claim to stand up for and protect the trans community. Its a fucking joke and your response is typical of that lot.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Mrs.Lucysnow,

I have a simple question: how often do you think a pervert is going to go into the women bathroom proclaiming he can because "transgender" just to perv on the people taking a shit? (pretty sure no one gives a fuck about women going into men's bathrooms)

Now yes I find it interesting that self proclaimed radical feminist think transgenders are not real women and that "funfeminist" think otherwise and their is strife between them... but as for who goes into what bathrooms, I give zero fucks.

 

[spidergoat]

ANY MAN CAN SIMPLY DECLARE HIMSELF A WOMAN AND THEN BE CONSIDERED A WOMAN BY LAW!

It sounds like you are saying transgenderism doesn't exist. That it's nothing more than a whim or a lark. I would just say you are out of touch with the real world.

 

[spidergoat]

And yet I am not transphobic neither are these two trans women WHO ACTUALLY AGREE WITH THE POINTS I AM MAKING!! Unless of course they are self-hating transphobes LOL! What a lame argument! If you critique any ideology, if you ask questions, if you set limits then you are a transphobic. Great! That's a great way to silence everyone isn't it? You don't have to have an argument you just have to call them names, shame them into silence right? Do you mind because now its time to call yo an idiot. I mean all slurs being equal and everything.

You do realize that finding two people who agree with you doesn't mean anything? And I doubt they would agree with your idiotic fears around bathrooms.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I am SOO glad they are challenging what it means to be a woman and re-defining gender in so many ways. It sure beats the traditional view of women as just objects or property. Or men are all macho and deserve to overpower and control women. That narrow, boxed in identity is stifling, suffocating and paints people in a corner.

Why does this make you insecure or effect you?

Why is challenging a theory that doesn't make any sense and perverts all logic a sign of insecurity? How does it affect me? Well I am a biological woman and so I have an invested interest you could say.

First of all it is not the trans community who redefined women, it was decades of feminist voices that did that, they were the ones who challenged and changed the traditional view of women as objects and property not the trans community. Funny enough its the trans community who are overturning that work by declaring women as objects because as they see it a woman is nothing more than an idea, a woman has no biological identity which feminism is built upon, a woman is a woman because she wears dresses and makeup, its a regressive notion not a progressive one. Women worked hard to advance the idea that a woman is a woman even if she doesn't wear a dress, makeup etc. and maintain traditional gender roles. Trans theory claims a woman is a woman because she engages in feminine things, not because of biology which was used to foster and maintain gender roles. Trans theory reinforces gender, it doesn't obliterate it.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

You do realize that finding two people who agree with you doesn't mean anything? And I doubt they would agree with your idiotic fears around bathrooms.

What you wanted me to put down on paper every trans woman who agrees with me? I put that there so you can have access to a debate that is taking place within the trans community and its a valid debate.